HELP!!!! How do you use this confounded thing!

[Hill's Hivery]

Ok, maybe I should not have done it but Hey! We all try to save a little here and there.

I purchased a refractometer off of ebay (NIB). It is a model RHB-90ATC. The directions leave a lot to be desired though. There is no calibration fluid and I have got a litl eplastic rectangular thingy that came with it.
ANy help in operating this thing would be great! I don't have any local keepers that use one to ask for help with it.

I am hoping the deal wasn't "to good to be true"!

Thanks in advance for any and all the help!

[Jim Fischer]

> It is a model RHB-90ATC.

The same thing that many bee supply houses
sell. Good for you, as you were NOT sold
a urine refractometer or brewing refractometer,
which only measure at the lower end of the
Brix scale, and are useless for beekeepers.

> There is no calibration fluid.

There should be. In the same little plastic
bag as the plastic rectangular thingy you
mention below. If the unit was sold as new,
advise the seller than all of these units
come with fluid, and he owes you a little
bottle (brown with a black top) that contains
the fluid. If he refuses, calibrate against
another beekeeper's unit, or, better yet, go
to a honey show and calibrate against a honey
judge. You can order fluid online, and a tiny
bottle lasts years, as you use only a drop
for each calibration.

> ...a litl eplastic rectangular thingy...

You put a drop of the calibration fluid
on this plastic thingy, and place it on
the prism, oil-drop side down to calibrate
the refractometer to 78.5% Brix.

[Jim Fischer]

I forgot to add...

You CAN find precision calibration fluid at
your local hospital. Glucose solution IV
bags! Explain that you'd like a few drops
from a used bag, slit it open with your
pocketknife, and extract the fluid with
an eyedropper to fill a clean bottle.

Each and every bag is marked with the
glucose percentage, and the quality control
on this stuff is very tight. Just don't
screw up and collect saline solution! smile.gif

[Dick Allen]

I've considered getting a refractometer for awhlie, both for measuring moisture content of honey and measuring the ºBrix in maple syrup. Standard density maple syrup is 66.0º Brix, and maple supply places sell refractometers to measure that.

Jim, you wrote that a honey refractometer is calibrated to 78.5% Brix. Did you mean degrees Brix and not percentage? My most important question, though, is would a refractometer used for measuring syrup density work for measuring honey moisture, too?

[Hill's Hivery]

OK, no brown bottle of juice in the kit. Can't even see where it would have been. Where can you purchase a bottle of cal juice? Do most of the bee suppliers carry it?

The unit didn't even come with directions on calibrating the unit. (Sheesh)

IS it possible that the unit is calibrated at the factory and since its and ATC, will not need to be calibrated?

[ December 15, 2005, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Hill's Hivery ]

[Jim Fischer]

> Jim, you wrote that a honey refractometer is
> calibrated to 78.5% Brix. Did you mean degrees
> Brix and not percentage?

No, I meant percent.

Does anyone ever use the "degrees Brix" scale
or even mention "degrees" when talking about
honey? I most often hear people talk about
"% sugar", "% water", or "brix", meaning "%
sugar". Perhaps we misuse the term "brix".
I'm sure if I misused the term, you will be
sure to educate us all. smile.gif

> My most important question, though, is would a
> refractometer used for measuring syrup density
> work for measuring honey moisture, too?

Dunno... honey refractomers tend to have a scale
that read from 12% to 30% water. While one really
does not need this much range for honey work, I'd
guess the minimum range you'd want for honey
would be about 15% to 25% water. I've never seen
honey any drier than 15%, but I've only kept bees
on the east coast.

As there are two different equations for "brix"
in the "degrees" version, I am unsure which
applies to honey.

[Hill's Hivery]

Ok....so my wife CAN find anything!

She did a search on Google which came up with a link to here! (Go figure!)

Anyway...here it is if anyone else wants it.
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000264

[Dick Allen]

>I'm sure if I misused the term, you will be sure to educate us all.

Well, as thankless a job as it is, someone has to keep you straight. tongue.gif

OK, seriously I’m not familiar with refractometers other than what I’ve read. I do some maple syrup processing back east in the spring. Commercial maple syrup processors do use the Brix scale and a related Baumé scale, both of which are expressed in degrees. Doesn’t a *refractometer* measure the *refraction* of light by the amount of sugar present? If it does it seems to me that it would be measured in degrees.

I’m truly not trying to be a smart-ass this time (but Jim, you make it so difficult!) Whoops!!!

I know, in the past, I’ve heard from some maple syrup producers here. Do any of you guys know if a maple syrup refractometer would work for measuring percent moisture in honey? Anyone?? :confused:

[ December 13, 2005, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]

[Aspera]

the refractometers that I've used (urine/blood) gave density values. Likewise, isn't Brix a measure of density? the percent moisture should pretty closely correlate to the Brix reading.

[Dick Allen]

“A good approximation of the weight of sugar in any lot of maple syrup, whether or not it is standard-density syrup, can be found by multiplying the weight of the syrup by its density (° Brix) and dividing by 100. This information is important to the producer who sells their syrup wholesale, since the price is based on its solids (sugar) content or weight. Thus, 100 pounds of syrup at 65° Brix contains 65 pounds of sugar, whereas 100 pounds of standard-density syrup (66.0° Brix) contains 66.0 pounds of sugar.”

All that came from this:

http://ohioline.osu.edu/b856/

Most all that I read on Brix gives it in degrees, which may or may not (probably not) be all that important anyway. I’m trying to determine if I can get a one size fits all for both honey and maple syrup. Even the “cheap” ones aren’t inexpensive and I don’t know if I can afford to buy two. After all I’m not in a financially rewarding academic career raking in wheelbarows of money like some on these forums. :cool:

http://www.leaderevaporator.com/items.php?208

The syrup version measures ºBrix from 45º to 82º. What scale do you guys use when calibrating for honey?

[ December 14, 2005, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]

[Dick Allen]

OK, got it figured out (I think....). Degrees brix and percentage sugar apparently are one and the same. There is a table in the current edition of THATHB (p. 892) and a table in the older 36th ed. of ABC & XYZ. (p. 438) giving moisture contents for % Sucrose (º Brix)

Calibrating to 78 º Brix is equivalant to 20.4 % moisture. Am I on the right track?

If that’s the case the refractometer sold by the maple syrup supply folks at 82º Brix has a lower moisture limit of 16.24 %. I guess it would sort of work for some honey.....

So what’s the high moisture range of honey refractometers? They probably don’t read down to the 66 º Brix range, do they?

[Robert Hawkins]

Dick, do y'all do maple syrple in Anchorage?

Hawk

[beedeetee]

Here is where you can covert from Degrees Brix (% sugar) to Degrees Baume.

http://www.onlineconversion.com/brix_and_baume.htm

[dickm]

BTW. This was one of the questions on the EAS master beekeeping program. I'd never seen one and had to figure out how to use it right there. I did, but didn't think the reading was very precise. I was a digit off in my reading and got the question wrong. I'm still mad.

Dickm

[Dick Allen]

No maple syrup up here except for what is sold in the supermarkets and what I bring back from New York in the spring. Man! is mine expensive after travelling all the way to New York, making it, and shipping it up to Anchorage. It’s a good thing I like it.

A small number of people do make birch syrup, though. I’ve made some a couple of times in the past. It has a flavor resembling molasses or honeydew. Some people claim to like it.

http://www.alaskabirchsyrup.com/abbisy.html

“It takes an average of 100 gallons of sap to make 1 gallon of birch syrup. Maple syrup, by comparison, averages 40:1. The sap, containing only 1-1.5% sugar, looks and tastes much like water right out of the tree. Concentrating the sugar to 67% by evaporation gives the syrup its color and distinctive flavor.”

Honey bees do like both maple syrup and birch syrup.

[Hill's Hivery]

Ok...just to update from when I started the thread.

Contacted the seller and got an "oops sorry" and that they will ship out the calibration fluid immediatly. So I guess all is well in the world!

34 degrees and sunny...wonder if the girls will be out today? They came out briefly last Monday for some cleansing flights when it got to 40's.

[Dick Allen]

so, what are the units and range listed on that model RHB-90ATC of yours?

[Dick Allen]

So what’s the high moisture range of honey refractometers?What!? nobody knows?! :rolleyes:

Don't any of you guys that have refractometers know the Brix and moisture ranges of them? :eek:

Help me out here. :confused:

[ December 23, 2005, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]

[Jim Fischer]

> Don't any of you guys that have refractometers
> know the Brix and moisture ranges of them?

Scoll back up, I answered the moisture question,
as "% water" is the only range I've ever heard
anyone in beekeeping use, as I mentioned. Some
people apparently misuse the term "Brix" to mean
"percent water", so I won't get into minor
details like the two different systems for measuring sugar content, both called "Brix", as
it would just confuse matters.

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004890;p=1#0000 05

[Dick Allen]

So what do the honey refractometers actually read? Is the scale graduated to read % moisture? There is a difference and I'm simply trying to determine what the high range is. Is 30% the actual, ultimate high range?

[ December 23, 2005, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]

[Dick Allen]

Here's what is written in THATHB:
"The refractive index of honey differs systematically from that of a sucrose solution of the same concentration, so a refractometer with a "Brix" or "Sucrose" scale will not provide accurate values for honey. To use such an instrument, a correction must be used."

A correction table is given on page 892 of the current edition of THATHB

[Jim Fischer]

OK, Dick, your tale of helpless woe has touched
my heart:

http://www.bee-quick.com/refractometer.jpg

Digital camera, shoved up against eyepiece,
showing actual scales, resolution and size
reduced for less pain for the dial-up users.

> So what do the honey refractometers actually
> read?

The refractive index of whatever you put on
the prism, hence the name "refractometer". smile.gif

> Is the scale graduated to read % moisture?

Yes.

> There is a difference

Who cares? As I've said, I've never heard
anyone EVER mention anything but "% Water",
no matter what terminology they (mis)used.

In the kitchen, we measure % sugar with a glass
tube hydrometer ("saccharometer"). It measures
0-50 degrees baume, with 0 being the reading you
get from tapwater.

Sorbets read between 14 - 18 degrees BE,
and a 1:1 simple syrup reads 28 degrees BE.

I only know the above because my wife likes
sorbet, and we can't get a reliable supply of
sorbet in this no-Starbucks town, so I make
it for her. I really DON'T CARE about the
complexities of converting Brix to %sugar to
Baume, and I also don't care about which Brix
system is which.

> and I'm simply trying to determine what the
> high range is.

I told you, now I'm showing you.

> Is 30% the actual, ultimate high range?

Of course not, it is just where they stopped
the scale for "honey refractometers", as only
a complete idiot would fail to notice very unripe
honey with moisture contents like 30%, the major
clue being that it pours out of the combs onto
your nice, new suede hiking boots when you pull a
frame out to look! smile.gif

[Dick Allen]

OK Jim thanks--actual high mositure reading 27%. That is what I was attempting to find out in spite of my confusion over ºBrix, etc. From your photo it appears that the % moisture scale has the correction factor already factored in for honey as it is not a straight line across from % sugar, so no need to use the tables listed in THATHB and ABC & XYZ. Looks as though a one size fits all for syrup and honey is not available from the honey and maple syrup suppliers. Oh well.... :(

[ December 23, 2005, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]