small cell or starter strips

[NeilV]

Okay, I know these topics have been addressed over and over and over and .... Please forgive me.

Here's my basic question: I'm brand new to this. I want to do small cell or natural cell and avoid chemicals to the extent it's practical to do so. I have put together 60 medium frames and 6 medium supers for two hives.

What do I put in the frames, small cell foundation or starter strips of foundation?

[Ruben]

60 frames of foundation $60 give or take. 60 frames of starter strips is 6 sheets of foundation $6 or so. I started last year with two hives and could not decide so in one hive I put starter strips and in the other I put foundation. As a new guy I did not secure the foundation good enough and 5 days after installing the packages I opened up the hives and the one on starter strips was good, the foundation collapsed on the other and I had to re-do it with starter strips. Both turned out great with starter strips.

[NeilV]

Forgot one detail -- the bees I've ordered are already on small cell, so regression is not an issue.

[Sport]

That's nice. From where did you order them?

[NeilV]

From Dixie Bee Supply aka fat/beeman (on beesource) aka Don Kuchenmeister. Don't have any bees yet, but have heard good things. Nice person to deal with so far.

[Michael Bush]

>What do I put in the frames, small cell foundation or starter strips of foundation?

What do you want to use? Either will work fine.

[sierrabees]

In my experience they will draw out the starter strips a lot faster then they will draw out full sheets of foundation.

[NeilV]

Heres some follow ups on starter strips:

Do the bees fully draw out complete frames with starter strips? Ive seen lots of pictures of frames with starter strips and I don't remember seeing any that were totally drawn out. Most have a half-circle stalactite of drawn comb. Do they get around to filling in the rest of the frame.

If they don't fully fill in the rest of the frame in a honey super, can you extract it without destroying the comb? (I have read in Mr. Bush's posts that it is extractable if they attach to all four sides, but what if they don't/how often does that happen).

I have also read that not everybody wires frames containing starter strips and that its not really necessary. However, are the combs somewhat more sturdy with wire?

I am using all medium boxes with the idea of making things interchangable. Will using starter strips in the boxes for honey storage result in larger cell stuff in those boxes that I then could not "convert" to brood nest foundation? If so, is that a big deal?

If those are not problems, then it would seem that starter strips would sure make sense and save some hard earned money.

Thanks for your input.

[Mike Gillmore]

>> Do they get around to filling in the rest of the frame.

The half comb frames can be reinserted during a flow and they will fill out the frames.

>> However, are the combs somewhat more sturdy with wire?

Yes, they are. Not everyone uses wire, but I do with mine. Last year I ended up having quite a few frames with the "half-moon" comb attached only at the top bar. During handling of these boxes most of them cracked along the connection at the top. If I did not have wire holding it in place, the combs would have fallen out.

>> Will using starter strips in the boxes for honey storage result in larger cell stuff in those boxes that I then could not "convert" to brood nest foundation?

Yes, they will usually draw out very large cells in the honey supers, which should not be used in the brood nest. The best approach is to pull drawn frames from the nest area that are not the most desirable "brood" comb and use them in the honey supers, replacing it with a starter strip frame in the brood nest.

[Michael Bush]

>Do the bees fully draw out complete frames with starter strips?

Eventually, yes. In the brood nest they often leave one end and the bottom unattached. I think this may be to use it as a dance ground for the waggle dance. In the supers they eventaully connect it. Here's a picture of a drawn foundationless comb:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/FoundationlessDrawn.JPG

>If they don't fully fill in the rest of the frame in a honey super, can you extract it without destroying the comb? (I have read in Mr. Bush's posts that it is extractable if they attach to all four sides, but what if they don't/how often does that happen).

It's often not attached until last thing. It only need to be attached some on each side not all the way. If you spin it fast enough you can blow out any wax comb, wired or not. If you're gentle you can extract foundationless that's only attached on three sides if it's "mature" enough to not be too soft, but I just cut those for cut comb and extract the ones that are attached on all four.

>I have also read that not everybody wires frames containing starter strips and that its not really necessary. However, are the combs somewhat more sturdy with wire?

Of course. They are more sturdy with the wire. But the queen doesn't like to lay where there's wire and if the hive isn't perfectly level (which is a good idea anyway with foundationless) then the wire sometimes doesn't end up in the center of the comb.

>I am using all medium boxes with the idea of making things interchangable. Will using starter strips in the boxes for honey storage result in larger cell stuff in those boxes that I then could not "convert" to brood nest foundation?

Probably.

> If so, is that a big deal?

Not if you keep track of the size or the origin. You can keep a tape handy and measure as you decide to put old honeycomb in the brood nest to keep it the right size.

[NeilV]

Okay, here's another idea -- what about doing naturalcell in the brood area and small cell in the supers. That way, I could save money on foundation up front and still use the drawn comb from the supers as brood nest frames in another hive if I expand later on. Also, the foundation would extract with less risk of falling apart (or would it?).

I guess the bees would really prefer to have larger cell sized comb for honey storage, but will they still draw it out and use it for honey? Would explaining my plans to the bees help?

Thanks again,

ndvan

[Michael Bush]

>what about doing naturalcell in the brood area and small cell in the supers.

That works. Or what about 7/11 in the supers, the the queen doesn't like to lay in and just use it in the supers. Or drone brood in the supers (which I don't recommend UNLESS you have natural comb in the brood nest OR a queen excluder) so it's easier to extract.

> That way, I could save money on foundation up front and still use the drawn comb from the supers as brood nest frames in another hive if I expand later on.

That would be the advantage to the 4.9mm. But they will be more likely to DRAW it 4.9mm if it's in the brood nest. They may still draw it 5.1mm in the supers.

> Also, the foundation would extract with less risk of falling apart (or would it?).

If it's wired it will be stronger than unwired. Wax foundation won't make it any stronger than natural comb but the wires will.

>I guess the bees would really prefer to have larger cell sized comb for honey storage, but will they still draw it out and use it for honey?

Probably not.

> Would explaining my plans to the bees help?

Probably not.

[spunky]

Ndvan:


I am doing the same as you. Going natural cell, starter strips ( all wax) with a nuc from fatbeeman, my second hive will be a package of commerical italians I am going to start the same way. Have to keep in touch here, and compare and learn .

regards
Brad

[NeilV]

brad,

I'll be around. Im really interested in your thoughts about the differences between the nuc from fbman and the italians. Did you get fbman's open-mated russians?

Ndvan

[spunky]

Yes, and I got some generic,commerical italians from Georgia. I am going to requeen the italians in June , with a survivor queen , from someones stock.

[NeilV]

Got a couple of follow ups.

From above:

I asked:

>I guess the bees would really prefer to have larger cell sized comb for honey storage, but will they still draw it out and use it for honey?


MB replied:

>Probably not.

Is that true if they are regressed bees and I am using small cell foundation? Then what size will they build out small cell in a honey super?

Second, I am really leaning toward small cell foundation to start with. I am using all mediums. I cannot find any crimp wired small cell medium foundation. The frames I have provide for two cross wires. Will that be enough support? Should I run wire horizontally and in an X?

Thanks for your help.

[Michael Bush]

>>I guess the bees would really prefer to have larger cell sized comb for honey storage, but will they still draw it out and use it for honey?

>Probably not.

Is that true if they are regressed bees and I am using small cell foundation? Then what size will they build out small cell in a honey super?

You'll have to try it and see. Some bees are more prone to build smaller cells. They may draw 4.9mm for honey storage but it's more likely they will cheat it up to 5.0mm or 5.1mm. You'll see from 4.4mm up to 5.0mm in the brood nest, but seldom see anything as small as that for just honey storage.

>Second, I am really leaning toward small cell foundation to start with. I am using all mediums. I cannot find any crimp wired small cell medium foundation.

Dadant has it.

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000786#000004
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005208#000003
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=004517;p=2#0000 29

These links show part numbers.

> The frames I have provide for two cross wires. Will that be enough support?

If the bees draw it soon enough you can get by with no wires. If they don't, two is good.

> Should I run wire horizontally and in an X?

I would do one or the other. Both is not necessary.

I got the deep unwired (because it was all that was available) and cut it in half for mediums and put two wires in and it looks like this:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Foundation49.jpg