different foundations

[BjornBee]

Someone recently used the phrase "I'm a wood and wax guy". And that also describes me. I however would like to try something else. After looking in some bee mags however, I have seen the following and some are hard to tell apart.
EZ frames
Durigilt
Plasticell
Pierco
Permacomb
Cellrite
etc, etc, you get the point.

In buying used equipment, I have come across a foundation/comb that has a thin plastic base that the comb was built on. And some had metal edges. Not interested in that but need to know what it is.

Also have a hard plastic foundation that fits in the wood frame grooves. I would say looking straight down on it, it would be about 3/16 inch wide. Looks sturdy. Whats that?

After a bad year with moths I am thinking about some plastic but the already drawn stuff seems alot. So whats in the middle and can someone suggest the pro/con of what they prefer?

Initially I'm looking for something that I can use with wooden frames, wedge or groove top and groove bottom? If this is possible.

Thank you.

[Iowabeeman]

The stuff with the thin plastic base and metal edges is Duragilt. we used this for years because it was fast to put in. The downside is that the bees mess up about 10% of it. Once the wax on top of the plastic is messed up they will never build anything but drone cells if they will build anything at all. The thick plastic foundation is Plasticell. It comes either waxed or unwaxed. this is what we use now. If the bees mess it up, you just scrape it off and give them another shot at it. The pattern is always there. This foundation works best with grooved top and bottem bars. EZ frames are a one piece frame and foundation that is all plastic. We have used them but I don't like them. The frames seem a little flimsey. If an ear breaks off, there is no way that I know of to fix it. The bees don't seen to stick them down as bad as the wooden ones, though. I don't have experience with the rest of the stuff on your list.

[Michael Bush]

>EZ frames
Never used it.

>Durigilt
Has a thin smooth plastic center (no embossing) and metal on the edges to keep it flat and stiff. Reqires no pins, no wires and works well until the wax comes off of the plastic. Then they never rebuild it. It's what you describe below.

DuraComb is the same except it doesn't have the metal edges and is cheaper. I've used a lot of it and basically I like it.

>Plasticell
Heavy embossed plastic. I've used it and liked it. It adds some weight to the frames. You can tell the difference between a super of wax foundation and a super of this kind of foundation without even trying.

>Pierco
One piece comb and frame. I have a couple but have never put them in a hive. I just got them to measure cell size. They seem popular. Saves putting together the frames.

>Permacomb
Fully drawn plastic comb. I use a lot of it, but I wax coat it to get small cells. There's a thread on it with everyones opinions. My only complaint is the spacing isn't quite right, but I still love it.

>Cellrite
Haven't used it. Maybe you mean RiteCell? I've used a lot of RiteCell. I like it. It has nice deep embossing so the bees have something to hang on to to cluster. You always have the occasional time they build a comb out from the surface (with a gap back to the plastic). This is much worse if you put 9 frames of undrawn in a super. But not a problem if you put 9 frames of drawn comb in a super. Using plastic makes spacing critical.

>Also have a hard plastic foundation that fits in the wood frame grooves. I would say looking straight down on it, it would be about 3/16 inch wide. Looks sturdy. Whats that?

Probably RiteCell or PlasticCell.

>After a bad year with moths I am thinking about some plastic but the already drawn stuff seems alot.

The moths will still tear up the comb on plastic foundation. The only advantage is you can tear all the wax off and reuse it. The PermaComb (already drawn stuff) they will not do more than make some webs over the surface and you can use a scrub brush or whatever and take it off or the bees will clean up that little bit of web. The moths never really get going in the PermaComb.

>Initially I'm looking for something that I can use with wooden frames, wedge or groove top and groove bottom? If this is possible.

The PlastiCell and RiteCell will work. Pierco also makes sheets as well as the one piece frame/foundation. Then of course there is the 4.9mm plastic from Dadant. Beautiful stuff. Very expensive.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited October 27, 2003).]

[txbeeguy]

About ten years ago, I bought the thicker, deeply embossed plastic sheets. Similar to the description of PlastiCell (above), only I think I recall that I bought it from Pierco. I bought many sheets (deep brood sized) of it, maybe 100. And I immediately outfitted my double brood box hives with it. Initially it did quite well and the bees drew it out and everything looked like it would work out fine.
Now here's what 10 years experience has taught me about it. My original motivation in buying it was the fact, that when the comb became very old, you could just scrap it off and place it back in the hive and the bees would clean it up and draw out new comb on it and you'd be set for several more years. Great concept! ...Doesn't work very well (especially for the brood nest area).
First of all, when you scrap the old comb off, the residue that's left at the bottom of the embossed cells is too hard for the bees to remove and so they don't clean up the foundation sheet very well. This leads to big problems in getting them to draw out new comb correctly. IF you can entice them to draw out new comb at all, it's mostly going to be drone comb (not worker-sized cells) OR they will hang a newly constructed worker comb from the top bar and not attach it to the plastic foundation sheet. In order to try and clean the used plastic foundation sheet better myself (before placing it back in the hive), I have tried freezing it and then knocking the hard frozen residue (slum-gum) off the sheet with sharp, quick impacts. This works to some extent but you can also crack the frozen sheets very easily. I have tried high pressure water jet streams and again this works to some extent. But nothing short of just good ole fashion 'hand scrubbing' and cleaning out individual embossed cells will get the sheet really clean. And even on those sheets, it's hard to get the bees to accept them to draw out new comb. The one thing I haven't tried is, once I get a sheet pretty clean, dipping it in hot beeswax in order to coat the sheet with a fresh layer of beeswax - this might help the bees accept it a little better. But after going to all this trouble, for me (at least), it's just easier to start back over with crimped-wire foundation!
--
Let me add one last thought. I also ordered many sheets of this same 'medium' depth foundation. I run mediums for my honey supers and for that use, I think it's great. While I can't recommend it for brood area use (for the problems described above), I do think it has worked out great for honey supers. First off, these combs don't get the same heavy usage as the brood comb so it lasts longer before you have to scrap it off; you don't have the slum-gum build up problem in cleaning the sheets and thus my bees have always drawn it back out more readily than the brood sized foundation. And if they do pull out drone sized comb to store the honey in, I don't care! :) And when it comes to extracting, the thicker plastic sheet adds strength, so the combs don't break (even at high speeds).

[Clayton]

Too add to what Micheal has said:

pierco also has a foundation (not full frame)that has one of the smaller cell sizes available before 4.9mm foundation came along.

Also there is perma-dent foundation that is sold by Lapp Bee Supply.

Also I agree with Txbeeguy about the reusability of plastic from brood combs. I have found no method that has worked well enough even without regaurd for time and labor. I have thrown out tons of this foundation over the last 4 yrs after removing combs the hard way. As for redipping in wax I have poor acceptance when I tried it. It also thickens the midrib 10 xs that what is natural to bees, the plastic is already too thick to start with in many types of plastic foundations. I suspect this would cause heat transfer problems from one side of a comb to another in winter cluster, but don't want to get into that here. With that said its wax for me. Maybe I will use the 4.9 plastic in supers if the price comes down. I am thinking other suppliers will pick it up this years to get the stuff a bit cheaper and to have better bulk deals.

[Michael Bush]

Also...

Most of the plastic, RiteCell and PlastiCell, don't have a shape in the bottom of the cell. In other words there is a hex wall, but the bottom of the cell is flat. I'm thinking (trying to remember off the top of my head) that Pierco has the "Y" in the bottom but it's not real sharp and clear. The Dadant 4.9mm has a beautiful cell bottom with a crisp "Y" that looks just like embossed wax foundation.

Also the Pierco deep one piece frames are 5.25mm cell size. Peirco medium sheets (not frames) are 5.25mm cell size. Pierco medium one piece frames are 5.35mm. I don't know why they are different.

[txbeeguy]

Ahhh...both Clayton and Michael have helped "restore" my memnory! Perma-dent IS what I have and I believe I did order it from Lapp, however when the shipping boxes showed up, they were marked with Pierco on the side of the box. I happen to remember this specifically, because I thought to myself at the time, "that's funny, that's not who I ordered this stuff from." Now this was on the order of ten years ago and I figured that Pierco must have just made the stuff for Lapp. And Michael, the bottom of those cells weren't exactly flat - I believe they do have the little concave 'Y' shape to them (but it's not very pronounced).

[odfrank]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...my 33 years of beekeeping has taught me that the only place for every kind of plastic foundation is on the display wall of my extracting room. Give me vertical wired and I'll give you fanatastic combs.

[fat/beeman]

hi All
I am with od frank after redoing many frames tooooo many to recall wax=wood best thing that came along since sliced bread.
after 48yrs in bees seems like a lot of fades or money makeing things come along to remove what little money a beekeeper makes.
I threw away a lot of plastic after finding it not as good as pure wax.
I always like to keep it as natural as poss.

Don

[beegee]

I just ordered 20 permacombs from John Seets. I'm going to build a hive using all mediums, but I will cut the boxes down to make the proper bee space for the 6" permacomb frames. I plan to either split my hive next spring and buy some packages. I will have at least 4 hives come January. I will measure the performance of the the permacombs vs. others. I have mostly duragilt now and I find that the bees haven't drawn it consistently. I have a few frames that are nice, but on others(I think ones that may have had damaged wax coating)they are drawing large erratic cells and burr comb. I will start my new ones on regular wired wax or go to comb-honey boxes with thin foundation.

[Louise]

One of the things I learned from another local beekeeper was that the best way to keep bees without drugs is to keep your hives healthy. And something that helps with general hive health is to replace your foundation over time since it starts to build up mold and debris.
So I'm using wired wax. I'll let you know in 10 years if it was a good choice! http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Curry]

To clean off old (slum-gum) brood walls from plastic, just keep a box that is full of wax moths. Rotate in frames that need to be "cleaned" and the wax moths do all the hard work. Then, pressure wash for the finishing touch. I'm sold on Pierco's myself.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

> I'm going to build a hive using all mediums, but I will cut the boxes down to make the proper bee space for the 6" permacomb frames.


I cut some of my boxes down, I don't think I would recomend it. When the boxes are cut down they make the frames closer together. When the frames are closer together, the denisity of the wax makes it harder to break open.

Having two or three rows of cells built inbetween the frames makes it easier to split apart. When there is only enough space for one row of cells, at certain times of the year they will propolize the space tight and it is very difficult to open up the boxes without breaking the plastic spacers.

Also having the extra space allows you to insert pollen paties and grease patties without putting pressure on the frames.

I will not be cutting any more of my boxes down.



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Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[mnist]

I have two hives with two deeps each (that makes 40 frames) with EZ Frames.

Since I'm a new beekeeper this year, I can't compare how fast the bees will draw this plastic compared with the traditional kinds.

I did notice out of my 40 frames, two had been drawn out in crazy burr comb. 5% burr comb -- is that better/worse/the same as what I might expect from wax and wood?

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First Year Beekeeping Journal: http://www.blackcatnetworkhelp.net/beeblog.aspx

[Michael Bush]

My experience is that they will mess up drawing it less often on wax. But they do it sometimes on wax also. It's at lest twice as often as I would expect them to mess it up with wax. But it's still the minority of the frames.

[ZEEBEE]

I decided to use wax coated plasticell for my new equipment. I have to gather up a list of equipment to set me up for the spring.
Thanks for the advice.

[greenbeekeeping]

Hi all. I have just used wood and crimp wired also. My father had bought a few hives that had the thin plastic in the middle. The bees chewed off the wax of most of the frames. It looked like quite a mess. I think that I will stick with the crimp wired for now. Besides It gives me something to do in the winter for the bees.