Medium super big enough?

[Barry Tolson]

A question to Michael and any who have experience with medium supers: Would one medium super be big enough for an effective bait box? I've had success attracting a swarm with a single deep, but I want to transition to all medium boxes. I seem to recall discussions in the past about the sizes of containers that I swarm would find acceptable but am unsure about using a single medium(with lemongrass oil)as a bait hive. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Barry
Indianapolis

[Aspera]

There are published values on ideal hive volume (it varies somewhat with the race of bee). Of course I don't know what those values are. I think the main thing are having your bait hives dark, high and dry with no sign of ants or other critters.

[Michael Bush]

>A question to Michael and any who have experience with medium supers: Would one medium super be big enough for an effective bait box?

The lure seems have more effect than the size, but the ideal size is probably a ten frame deep or so. I often use a five frame deep nuc with medium foundationless frames (and usually one old drawn brood comb sprayed with certan to keep the moths out) in it because it hangs in trees easier than a ten frame medium does. A ten frame medium is acutally bigger than the five frame deep.

>I seem to recall discussions in the past about the sizes of containers that I swarm would find acceptable but am unsure about using a single medium(with lemongrass oil)as a bait hive. Any thoughts?

I think it will work fine.

[drobbins]

hmm,

I've built 4 "swarm traps" that are the dimensions of a 5 frame medium nuc
I know where a "bee tree" is that I can't get the bee's out of, but it's reported to throw swarms most every spring.
of course I want some smile.gif
maybe I should plan on using medium hive bodies for traps rather than these boxes I've made up
the boxes are functional as nuc's so they won't go to waste

Dave

[BjornBee]

I guess "effective" could have many meanings.
I have caught swarms in 5 frame deep nucs, but is that effective or optimal for success?
The volume in a standard 10 frame deep hive body has been long regarded as the best.
Those in the south need to keep to the larger sizes unless you are specifically trying for AHB's.

Note...Ferals in the wild tend to, on average, build in smaller cavities. Most tree cavities just are not that big. This promotes ferals to swarm more and may add to the natural survivability of these colonies.

[Joel]

Cornell did a study on this several years ago and it was published in ABJ. Very interesting article. This is one case where size, height off the ground, and environmental factors such as direction of the opening and protection from the elements really does matter. Keep in mind when a hive swarms they send out scouts. Scouts will explore several locations and literally report back to the swarm and communicate what was found. (clever aren't they). If there are competing locations scouts will be sent our again and get further information. (good schools, public facilities etc). They will then pick the best location. Increased results were reported in boxes the size of a full deep over other conventional swarm boxes, 9 feet off the ground with some comb or at least the smell of comb. I'll see if I can find the article and get more accurate information as this is all memory.

One sure way to catch swarms is to stack your empty honey supers about 12 high. Like clock work one will move into a stack the day before you plan on moving it to the outyards.

Many tout the use of lemongrass but I believe the study found no difference with or without (they may have used queen phermone lure), as long as comb was present. You'll never catch the bees your after, being the fickle creatures they are a swarm will fly in from 5 miles away to occupy your box.

[Michael Bush]

>Many tout the use of lemongrass but I believe the study found no difference with or without (they may have used queen phermone lure), as long as comb was present.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a study (I'll see if I can find it) that said with swarm lure, not only where they more likely to prefer that location but they would overlook other defeciencies such as size, height etc.

[BjornBee]

I think comb is the difference in the studies, making both correct.

Lures will give an advantage of some heigth, size and other cosiderations. But when placed next to comb, I have read a study also that said lures did not out-perform comb.

I guess the correct positioning, with old comb, and a lure would be optimal.

[Michael Bush]

Basically you're fishing. Some days the fish will bite on plain worms. Some days you have to combine some techniques to get a bite. You're trying to improve the odds.

I had a swarm move into an empty (dead) hive this spring. It was five empty medium boxes full of comb. Wrong size (too big). Wrong height (too low). Lots of comb. Right smell.

The question is how much does it cost you and how much does it help. I don't know, but I have set a lot of swarm traps that are either eight frame mediums or five frame deeps and had fair luck. Maybe I'd have better luck with a deep.

If it was me (trying to stay with mediums) maybe I'd be better off with some of the old deep brood boxes I recently inherited (and a couple I never got cut down) with some old medium combs and frames. That way I get the right size and the frames I want to put them on. smile.gif I may try that.

[Aspera]

I'm sure that few swarm attractants can equal the worth of some smelly old brood comb. The problem is that you may attract things other than swarms. Maybe this is why some people prefer queen pheremones?

[Jim Fischer]

If you read this famous study:
http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/rf/selection/

And note that the rough interior volumes of
commonly-used gear are:

Deep = 42 liters
Medium = 30 liters
(Deep) Nuc = 21 liters

It seems that a deep is just "too big", while
a (deep) nuc is "too small", and a medium is
very close to "just right" for European Honey
Bees. The (deep) nuc may be more appropriate
for trapping Africanized Bees, something to think
twice about in Southwestern areas.

But bees are going to pick the "best" of what
may be a set of poor choices within the range
of the scouts, so the best strategy is to
place your swarm traps within flight range of
your or another beekeeper's apiary. smile.gif

I have a large collection of boxes that the
smaller (36xx, 42xx and other 5.25-inch rack-mount
boxes) Cisco routers are shipped in, and they work
just fine as swarm traps, mostly because they are
made from the waxy cardboard that sheds water like
a duck, and their interior volume is just slightly
larger than a medium super, while they are much
lighter. (I also like the irony of hanging router
boxes in trees to "re-route" bees.)

Entire frames of old drawn comb make transferring
the swarm to a hive much easier, so I notch the
foam in the router boxes to accept a frame or 2
of otherwise disreputable comb.

[Joel]

{Many tout the use of lemongrass but I believe the study found no difference with or without (they may have used queen phermone lure), as long as comb was present. You'll never catch the bees your after, being the fickle creatures they are a swarm will fly in from 5 miles away to occupy your box.}

As i read this I realized I hadn't said what I meant.

Editors note
Many have added attractants such as lemongrass or queen phermone with good success although I don't believe it was reflected in the Cornell Study.

{so the best strategy is to
place your swarm traps within flight range of
your or another beekeeper's apiary.}

Why not both?