9 vs. 10 frames

[longarm]

I'm guessing it's a common question.. but why would someone run only 9 frames instead of 10?

[Christopher Petree]

I run 9 because the frames are easier to get out of the hive and roll the bees less, causing less angry bees on a whole. If it's new foundation, I use 10 until they get drawn out.

If you use 9 in a honey super, the comb ends up being thicker and easier to uncap when extracting.

[TwT]

I only use 9 frames in my honey supers because it makes the frames easier to uncap, they do build the comb out past the top bar, only use 9 frames if the comb is already drawn. I would say never use 9 frames in the brood chamber, the more is better in brood chambers....

[Christopher Petree]

TwT, Ten frames may sound like you are giving more space for the queen to lay, but in a majority of hives, the queen doesn't usually utilize 2-3 frames for brood rearing, so taking out one doesn't affect brood rearing drastically, if at all. Also, it is my belief that running 9 frames gives more clearance when putting the frames back in and taking them out, making the chances of crushing the queen less. And as I said, the extra room doesn't roll the bees as much, making them overall more gentle.

As you can see, I'm a hard-headed 9-frame guy. smile.gif

[Tia]

I'm with TwT. 9 frames in honey supers only. I find that if I use 9 frames in the brood boxes, they build irregular comb that sticks out past the frame like they do in the 9-frame honey supers (the inevitable bee space) which, IMO,leads to more rolling bees and/or crushing the queen. In any event, when I'm doing manipulations I always entirely remove one of the end frames which gives me plenty of room to slide the other frames apart thereby preventing crushing and rolling.

[Dwight]

I agree with Tia. And I have had queens fill all ten frames at times. Very rare though.

[Christopher Petree]

Ask ten beekeepers and you get 12 answers...

What is probably more important, as it pertains to brooding rearing, is how many frames are above the brood nest for the queen to move to. Width is important, but bees like to move upward.

[rache]

i'm just more comfortable with nine. the spacers make for much easier removal/replacement of the frames, and i find the whole setup more manageable in general.

[Michael Bush]

I like 9 in a ten from super AFTER it's drawn comb. I like 11 in a ten from brood box, after I cut the end bars down to 1 1/4".

[Ron Young]

11 in the ten frame brood box?? Wow. I was curious to one thing mentioned earlier.

> in a majority of hives, the queen doesn't usually utilize 2-3 frames for brood rearing, so taking out one doesn't affect brood rearing drastically, if at all.<

Would this not be the fault of the beekeeper, and his or her failure to manipulate the frames in such a way as to increase the brood nest?

[Christopher Petree]

NCBeginner, this could be the "fault of the beekeeper," but you need to keep some pollen and honey near the brood for very practical reasons. This is a non-issue if you allow enough supers for the brood chamber. Regardless, the bees have to have a few frames to store the very basic things they need for colony functioning.

[John Gesner]

I like 9 frames in my brood boxes for two reasons. One because it's easier for me to get my hive tool in to pull frames, and there seems to be more space between combs and that doesn't lend to "rolling" bees. HOWEVER, bees manage their space and the space between frames is likely just the same as in 10 frames. One thing bees don't do in my nine frame boxes as much as they do in the 10 framers I have left, they don't seem to build as much bridge comb between the top bars. This makes it easier to see between frames and to pull them without spearing bees with my hive tool while cutting the bridge comb.

The second is purely theoretical from what I've read but it makes sense to me. If you run 9 frame supers, then 9 frame brood boxes line up with them. This, theoretically, decreases congestion between the boxes by allowing the bees to move more freely up and down. Also, it would seem to create better air flow in the hive, which during the winter will help control condensation. Also, any debree, including dislodged mites, would have a better chance of falling to the bottom board.

Just my two cents worth.

[Michael Bush]

> in a majority of hives, the queen doesn't usually utilize 2-3 frames for brood rearing, so taking out one doesn't affect brood rearing drastically, if at all.

I'm glad I don't have your queens. But I think you'll get more brood if you put them tightly together. The bees can keep the brood warmer with less bees. There was some research, and I am trying to track it down, on 11 frame spacing having less nosema as well as building up more quickly in the spring.

I like 9 (or even eight) DRAWN frames in a ten frame super because they are easy to uncap. I don't like 9 frames in a ten frame brood box because the bees build the honey portions of the comb in and out and the frames are no longer interchanable. Also it takes more bees to care for the brood, especially in colder months.

Of course, since I run eight frame boxes with 9 frames in them for brood, I have the same number of brood frames in a box as those running nine in a ten frame box, and the bees have a lot easier time caring for the brood.

[HarryVanderpool]

>>> I run 9 because the frames are easier to get out of the hive and roll the bees less,...<<<

This is a common misconception.
Maybe we all need to go back to the book and read about beespace.
Over time, combs that are arranged further apart become thicker. The space between will be the same, 9 or 10 makes no difference.
The big difference is that with ten frames, you will be LESS LIKELY to roll bees due to the fact that the endbars will maintain the proper spacing between combs as they were designed to in the first place.
With thicker comb, combs can actually make contact with each other during manipulation, causing bees to be damaged.
Otherwise, I do go to 9 frames in my honey supers, not in the brood nest.
:cool:

[ October 01, 2006, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: HarryVanderpool ]

[Christopher Petree]

This is my last contribution to this topic because we could debate it ad nauseum:

I like 9 frames because it works for me.

[rainesridgefarm]

I do nine in the brood box and 8 in the honey super. I have seen a 6-9 Lb increase going to 8 from 9 in the honey super.

[Joel]

<ten frames, you will be LESS LIKELY to roll bees>

This makes sense logically but my brood nests with 9 frames are clearly more open than with 10 frames and I roll less bees with less effort. I also like 9 frames because I can pop a lid, look down inside and have a good idea what's goin on.

We went to 8 frames in 1/3 of our honey supers this year as we went to a chain uncapper. Much easier to uncap than 9 or 10 frame. I was not aware the total volume of honey was higher, one more reason I guess.

[DRJCKB]

I just finished working the 10 frame boxes and boy it was difficult.

I really was worried about killing the queen/damaging many bees when I took the end frame out. obviously, you can move them easier once the first one is out- but that first one out and last one back in really was concerning.


The 9 frame configuration (such as I have on my honey supers) is/was much easier to manipulate/inspect.

[HarryVanderpool]

This is just one more reason to stay on track with your perodic hive inspections.
When you pull frames, pay attention to the endbars where they contact each other and scrape any wax off with your hive tool.
10 frames will remove just as easy as 9 if you take care of your frames.
:cool:

[honigbiene]

MB mentions using 9 frames in an 8-frame brood chamber or 11 frames in a 10-frame using frames with the end bars cut down to 1 1/4".

The plans on this website for Dadant-style frames show the top bars to be 1 1/16" wide. For a 10-frame box of 14 3/4" interior width (plans also on this site), the resulting space between all top bars summed together is 4 1/8" (14 3/4" - 10 5/8"). The 11 gaps between the hive walls and frames then average 0.375", or 3/8". If 11 standard width top bars are used, the 12 gaps would average 0.255", or barely greater than 1/4" (14 3/4" - 11 11/16 divided by 12).

Will this be enough beespace? Or should the top bars be trimmed down slightly as well? That would be tricky to do on assembled frames! Can drones fit through a 1/4" opening?

[Michael Bush]

>Will this be enough beespace?

The bees can get through. They will burr it some. If you cut the top bars 1" or even 15/16" or even 7/8" it would probably work better. I haven't bothered to do so, but I think it's a great idea.

> Or should the top bars be trimmed down slightly as well?

It wouldn't hurt.

> That would be tricky to do on assembled frames!

I've never tried it.

>Can drones fit through a 1/4" opening?

Yes. As can the queen.

[newbee 101]

10 frames in the brood boxes here. I just take the first frame out and set it to the side. Then inspect each one, placing them in the previous spot. I only check the first 6 or so. Works for me with no smoke. 9 drawn frames in the honey super. Bought one of them fancy aluminum, oversized combs to space them. :D