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ten frames in honey supers

2K views 14 replies 11 participants last post by  Tom Chaudoir 
#1 ·
As a new beekeeper I didn't get the word early enough about using 9 instead of 10 frames in the honey supers, so the frames are packed together really tight. Is this going to be a problem at harvest time? (November for me)
 
#2 ·
No problem at all Gabe. In fact, if you started with foundation then you did the right thing by using 10 frames. After frames have been drawn out and go through their first extraction, then you can space them out to 9 frames per super.
If you start out with 9 frames per box with new foundation you will probably end up with a lot of comb that will be drawn out into the adjacent undrawn frame... a real mess when you pull the frames out at harvest time.
 
#3 ·
You should always use 10 when installing foundation to be drawn. That means you will always have to use a little more effort to uncap the frames the first time. The wax is also very tender the first year, so you have to extract with care the first time. After your first harvest, you can return 9 frames to the honey super and get thicker homneycomb, thus easier uncapping from then on.
 
#5 ·
It maybe easier uncapping the thicker honeycombs you get with 9 frames, but you are also putting more of a strain on the bees to draw wax. If you have plenty of frames why not give them ten and and fill more frames and draw less wax. Is there any reference to how much honey and energy it takes the bees to draw the extra comb instead of using an existing comb on another frame?

Just something to ponder.....
 
#6 ·
Has anyone measured and compared the wax in a 10 frame super to the wax in a 9 frame super? My guess is that it will take just as much, if not more, wax to hold 30 lbs. of honey in 10 frames as it would 9.

Or maybe we could just use a nail to puncture each cell and extract, leaving ALL the wax for the bees to reuse. :confused: :D
 
#10 ·
Kelbee- I don't understand your question. what do you mean by "empty frames". Do you mean a top bar hive? I believe that both ten and nine frames will yield the same amount of honey but the ten will use less wax. (wider comb).
According to the answers so far - I now understand that I should start supers with ten new frames and only use nine when I reuse the extracted frames.(which have existing wider comb.
 
#11 ·
By empty frames I mean foundationless. I don't have access to an extractor so am doing crush and strain. I used 10 frames in my supers this year (my first). Would 9 have been better? How well they draw the comb is not that important since I end up detroying it to get the honey.
Kelbee
 
#12 ·
>>How well they draw the comb is not that important since I end up detroying it to get the honey.

I suppose that is true, but you may run into problems when they crosscomb from frame to frame, put comb up if there is a larger space, etc. That in and of itself may not be a huge deal, but getting all of the bees out, combs collapsing when you try to move them all over the bees, etc could pose a problem.

Depending on your foundationless frame they may have a good enough starting point where they will draw it nice and straight. I suppose you could also keep them crowded in the middle, and as they started to draw out the comb move the combs apart.

But I think it easier and simpler to stick with 10 frames in that case. And not a huge harvest difference.
 
#13 ·
Nine or ten frames, I don't think you're going to see a lot of difference in honey production. The main difference is the ease of uncapping with nine frames and the fact that those folks with extractors that handle nine frames or a multiple of nine will feel like they're really smart.


My guess, and it's just a guess, is that nine frames could have a slight theoretical advantage because the super has one less mid rib. I doubt the difference would be worth talking about.
 
#14 ·
> Nine or ten frames, I don't think you're going
> to see a lot of difference in honey production.

I'd agree if you said that in the context of
giving the bees lots of drawn comb with which to
work, but in the case of a limited amount of comb
(let's say 2 supers per hive, just for kicks),
you have one drawback to using 9-frame supers -
fewer cells in which to deposit and evaporate off
drops of nectar.

10% less cells in a 9-frame super means 10% less
evaporating real estate, which can only be
overcome by deployment of excess supers for
the sole purpose of insuring that the number of
free cells of drawn comb do not become the
limiting factor when evaporating nectar.

Sure, there is a "law of diminishing returns"
to stacking supers, but the basic approach
here is to super early, super everything you
can stack, and to harvest both early and often
to free up cells for the all-important step of
evaporating individual drops of nectar. Think
of how many drops of nectar must be evaporated
to fill one cell with honey. The ratio has to
be something like 10:1, and the amount of
available real estate decreases as nectar is
processed into honey, which fills some number of
cells per day.

So, if you have limited resources, deploying
9-frame supers could limit your harvests
until you build up a decent inventory of drawn
comb. What's a "decent" inventory? Well, one
can never be too rich, too thin, or have too
much drawn comb.
 
#15 ·
Some educated guesses from a relative newbee:

Kelbee,

Go with 10 frames for crush and strain. 9 frames is for recycled comb only. Even with 10 frames, you get a bit of bridge comb now and then. (Frame to frame or frame to box.) If you put 9 frames of foundation in there, I'm betting the result will be chaos.

About additional wax being needed for 9 frame:

I don't see it. When first going from 10 to 9, they will have to add another 10% to draw it out the rest of the way. After that they will have to replace just the cappings, just like with 10 frame.

About curing and dehydration:

The bees don't just fill the cells and go away until the honey is done. They work the nectar into honey. A small drop is brought up from the honey stomach and placed between the mandibles. It's spread apart while the wings are running to draw air over the drop. A little more is then added to the drop. The contents of the honey stomach are thus dehydrated somewhat before it's put into a cell.

If they can find some cells that aren't full, they coat the roof of each cell with pre-processed nectar. That presents a lot of surface area for the honey to cure. When they feel that it's almost honey they move what's on the roof to the bottom of the cell. Nectar goes in and out of the bees a few times before it's finished honey.

There's no sense in capping the cell if it's going to dehydrate a lot. That would be a waste of storage room.

....to super early, super everything you
can stack, and to harvest both early and often ....
Agreed. As long as the brood boxes are fully stocked and in need of more room for stores.

By the way: Thanks, Jim for that advice. Makes sense. My plan was to put on one super per hive and replace when full. I have lots of supers. More will go on tomorrow.
 
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