checkerboarding

[3pepper]

what is it exactly . i read the other post saying it reduced swarming . when and how often do you do it

[peggjam]

Checkerboarding is basicly the act of openning up the broodnest. Basicly you take out every other frame and either replace it with foundation, or an empty drawn comb. You would then take the ones you took out and do the samething in the 2nd hive body. It gives the queen more room to lay, and aids in swarm prevention.

[3pepper]

can i use the frames i remove from the bottom deep to populate another hive? my lang hive has plastic foundation and i was looking for a way to rotate them out of the hive , this may be the answer . how often can i do this ?

[Pugs]

Pepper, is it ok to call you Pepper?

Use the search feature at the top of this page and search on checkerboarding also do a search on Walt Wright. There has been a number of threads on this subject. You can buy a copy of Walt's manuscript on checkerboarding from him; the search will bring up a thread with the relevate (sp?) info.

Also do a google search on Walt Wright and bees. There is a web site that has posted pdfs of his published articles.

Of course, Walt's son-in-law should find this thread soon and post some info. Walt is not an on-line kinda person, so his son-in-law checks for him.

Pugs

[Tom Chaudoir]

Walt did an article in the latest Bee Culture. I read it a couple of times, but have to say that I still don't completely get it. There were references to things that he'd written before, and I think he assumed that I'd read them. There was a graphic, but no real explanation of what I was looking at. The graphic had some keys, but 2 of them looked exactly the same, at least to me. I might just be thick, but really did try to figure it out.

I did take these things away: </font> It's not for beginners. That lets me out anyway.</font> At times you will have a really tall stack of boxes.</font> It shuts down swarming and increases honey yield. That will be great once I get over this beginner thing and figure out just exactly what it's all about.</font>

[FordGuy]

Tom, walt wright puts out a brochure as I understand it, and that may be the best source for learning about nectar management. You would be getting info from the source, and Mr. Wright would be benefitted from his discoveries.

[PA Pete]

You'll find a nice site with an overview of checkerboarding and copies of Walt's articles here:

http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/Walt's%20BIO.htm

I recommend you buy the paper from walt - it's much more thorough than the articles (which are brief by comparison). I recommend the PDF version. I made the mistake of buying a printed copy, thinking it was going to be bound - it was just a printout from the PDF, which I wish I had but don't :(

[ June 01, 2006, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: PA Pete ]

[peggjam]

3pepper

I will usually rotate frames to the outside wall where they will get filled with honey, and then remove them. In swarm prevention mostly what you are looking to do is remove the honey filled frames from the broodnest. You can put these in weaker colonies to boost them, or if you don't care about honey production you can use them to make splits if they contain a decent amount of brood. You can also move them above an excluder and wait for the brood to hatch out, and then do whatever you want to with them. This is also a good way to get comb drawn.

[Pugs]

Pete,

I seem to remember that Walt's son-in-law said if you had bought a paper copy, he'd get you the pdf. I don't remember the details of how you proof what. Maybe he'll check in and update us. I think he posted it in a thread last year.

I wish I had the pdf too. I'll have to find the info and see if they are still doing this.

Pugs

[wayacoyote]

Thanks Pugs.

Tom,
I'm not sure of the article that said "not for beginners" but the book doesn't give me that impression except for one specifically crucial point that would be difficult for first-year beginners....

Having spare drawn comb

You can't do the prescribed manipulations if you don't have empty combs. If you are a first-year beek and barely got the hive ready for winter, then you might have to wait another season. But if you have a couple of years under your belt and just don't see yourself in the "advanced" catagory yet, no worries.

(This past year, I extracted mid-winter from what I knew would be excess honey to get empty combs. I kept the honey on hand for feeding should I need it, but I didn't. Not only did I get a larger hive with more stores, but I was able to extract more from 2005's production that what most locals would tolerate... not something "I" would recommend to a newbee.)

Waya

[Jeffrey Todd]

I thought checkerboarding was the process by which you alternate full frames of honey with empty frames (drawn, foundation, truly empty) in the supers, not the broodnest proper. Further, the process extends vertically, so that empty frames are above full ones, and full ones above empty ones, like this:
EFEFEFEFE
FEFEFEFEF
Not to get picky, but it is an important difference not only for swarm prevention but the concurrent goal of maximum honey production. Please correct me if I am wrong, as I do not want to put out bad information.

[peggjam]

"I thought checkerboarding was the process by which you alternate full frames of honey with empty frames (drawn, foundation, truly empty) in the supers, not the broodnest proper. Further, the process extends vertically, so that empty frames are above full ones, and full ones above empty ones, like this:
EFEFEFEFE"

Jeff:

The idea is to open up the broodnest, has very little to do with the honey supers. As the bees get ready to swarm, they backfill the broodnest with honey, the idea of checkerboarding is to remove this honey, so the bees "think" they are not ready to swarm. True checkerboarding is done only in the broodnest, not the supers. It simiply gives the queen alot of room to lay. And yes, you can use whatever kind of frames you have, drawen or undrawen.

"You can't do the prescribed manipulations if you don't have empty combs."

Empty comb is empty comb, wether drawen or undrawen, dosen't matter, it still works. It simiply a matter of alternating a brood comb with an empty one, and removing the honey filled ones, either to another box, or hive, or extracted. It's not difficult, and anyone can do it.

[Michael Bush]

&gt;Checkerboarding is basicly the act of openning up the broodnest. Basicly you take out every other frame and either replace it with foundation, or an empty drawn comb.

First, Walt Wright coined the term, so I think he has the right to define it. He says it's in the SUPERS, NOT the brood nest, but OVER the brood nest, that you put capped honey and empty drawn comb every other frame and then the opposite in the box above then (hence "checkerboard").

Second I would never replace every other frame in a brood nest with an empty frame (or foundation or even empty drawn comb). In a booming hive I might put two frames of brood and one empty and two frames of brood and one empty etc. But this would not be checkerboarding as defined by Walt Wright.

&gt; You would then take the ones you took out and do the samething in the 2nd hive body. It gives the queen more room to lay, and aids in swarm prevention.

I would certainly not alternate them in the box above. I would put them together. And that would be what Dee Lusby calls "pyramiding up".

&gt;can i use the frames i remove from the bottom deep to populate another hive?

Sure. It's called a split. smile.gif

&gt;It's not for beginners. That lets me out anyway.

I think it's fine for beginners. His explanation about the why's and wherefores might be over your head, but the "what" is simple. Just keep that cap of capped honey off of the brood nest by alternating drawn comb between the capped honey.

&gt;At times you will have a really tall stack of boxes.

That's a good thing if they are full of honey.

&gt;I will usually rotate frames to the outside wall where they will get filled with honey, and then remove them. In swarm prevention mostly what you are looking to do is remove the honey filled frames from the broodnest.

I agree. This will avoid swarming, but this is not checkerboarding.

&gt;I thought checkerboarding was the process by which you alternate full frames of honey with empty frames (drawn, foundation, truly empty) in the supers, not the broodnest proper.

Precisely.

&gt; Further, the process extends vertically, so that empty frames are above full ones, and full ones above empty ones, like this:
EFEFEFEFE
FEFEFEFEF

Precisely.

&gt;Not to get picky, but it is an important difference not only for swarm prevention but the concurrent goal of maximum honey production.

Precisely.

&gt;Please correct me if I am wrong, as I do not want to put out bad information.

You are correct. These are two different things.

&gt;The idea is to open up the broodnest, has very little to do with the honey supers.

This is a different concept and does not have the term "checkerboarding" attached to it.

&gt; As the bees get ready to swarm, they backfill the broodnest with honey, the idea of checkerboarding is to remove this honey, so the bees "think" they are not ready to swarm. True checkerboarding is done only in the broodnest, not the supers. It simiply gives the queen alot of room to lay. And yes, you can use whatever kind of frames you have, drawen or undrawen.

This is a way to avoid swarming, yes. It is not called checkerboarding, no.

&gt;"You can't do the prescribed manipulations if you don't have empty combs."

For Walt's methods, this is a correct statement.

&gt;Empty comb is empty comb, wether drawen or undrawen, dosen't matter, it still works.

In the brood nest yes, in the supers no.

&gt; It simiply a matter of alternating a brood comb with an empty one, and removing the honey filled ones, either to another box, or hive, or extracted. It's not difficult, and anyone can do it.

Yes anyone can do it. But, assuming we are talking about opening the brood nest, and NOT talking about checkerboarding, it still should be done carefully so you don't break the brood nest up too much for the bees to keep it warm and to fill the gaps.

Maybe we need a shorter more succinct description for "opening up the brood nest" but "checkerboarding" is already taken.

[ June 02, 2006, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Michael Bush ]

[peggjam]

"First, Walt Wright coined the term, so I think he has the right to define it. He says it's in the SUPERS, NOT the brood nest, but OVER the brood nest, that you put capped honey and empty drawn comb every other frame and then the opposite in the box above then (hence "checkerboard")."

This is where I differ in my interpatation of what Walt was writing about. First off this must be done early enough in the spring to get the hive past the commit to swarm peroid. Most areas in the north would preform this around May 1st. There are very few areas in the north that would have any honey supers on that early in the year, so this manipulation would be performed on the top box, which in all likely hood would be the top brood chamber. The following statement from
Walts manuscript backs this up:
"The decision was made to try to offset the backfilling phase of swarm preparations. Still wintering in 2 1/2 stories, three frames of honey were removed from both the upper hive body and the shallow at the top. Frames 3, 5, and 7 of our nine-frame system were removed and replaced with empty brood comb. This was done in December of 1995" (pg 37-38).

Remember, we are only taking frames of honey out of the broodnest. Here is a description of Walts metheods from his manuscript.


"To start the manipulation, in the comfort of your honey house, select a super of comb suitable for rearing brood. It doesn't matter whether the comb is light or dark colored, but the cells must be deep enough for brood rearing. The bees will not use cells to shallow for brood. Select a super of worker brood comb for each hive on which you are going to apply nectar management techniques. Having selected a work box of empty comb suitable for rearing brood, remove alternate frames of honey in the top hive box and place them in the box to be added. Replace the frames of honey removed from the top box with empty frames from the work box. Both boxes will then have frames of honey alternated with empty comb. Add the work box at the top of the hive. As the cluster enfolds the empty comb, the bees will store nectar in the empty frames. Although it might not be needed this early, we normally add a full empty of drawn comb above at the same time."
(pg 47).


"He says it's in the SUPERS, NOT the brood nest, but OVER the brood nest, that you put capped honey and empty drawn comb every other frame and then the opposite in the box above then (hence "checkerboard")."

What I read states you preform this on the top box of the hive. And he does not recommand reverseing the broodchambers either. So, If you don't have any supers on, and you don't reverse the broodchamber.........................????????

"Second I would never replace every other frame in a brood nest with an empty frame (or foundation or even empty drawn comb). In a booming hive I might put two frames of brood and one empty and two frames of brood and one empty etc. But this would not be checkerboarding as defined by Walt Wright."

I do things different, if there are enough bees to fill the hive body and cover all the brood, this is what I do, usually after the weather is stable enough and warm enough to do so. Theres many different ways to read something, I have not, in reading and rereading Walts manuscript seen him state that this is done only in the supers. I don't see where it would do any good to preform this only in the supers. By the time we put our first supers on here, about the May 1st, swarm season is about to start (our swarm season runs from May 15-June 15, give or take). And correct me if I am wrong, but the whole idea is to prevent swarming. Give me a page # where he states "This is only preformed in the supers."

[ June 02, 2006, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: peggjam ]

[Michael Bush]

&gt;What I read states you preform this on the top box of the hive. And he does not recommand reverseing the broodchambers either. So, If you don't have any supers on, and you don't reverse the broodchamber.........................????????

Call it a super, call it a brood box. The point is, it's a box with honey and without brood and that is where the manipulation takes place:

"That brings us to the second major advantage- simplicity, or the low effort aspect. A child who knows nothing about beekeeping, can alternate combs of honey and empty comb. It is done at the top of the over-wintered colony in late Winter, preferably before the colony has outgrown the brood chamber where they wintered. Since there is no brood nest disturbance it can be done in almost any weather short of a pouring rain. I've checkerboarded in a light rain at 40 degrees F."
--Walt Wright, Nectar & Swarm Management, Beeculture May 2006 Page 56, 2nd column, 2nd paragraph.
http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/ABJ%20Copies/BC%20May%202006.pdf

Also look at the diagrams of checkerboarding on that web link. There is no brood involved.

&gt;Theres many different ways to read something, I have not, in reading and rereading Walts manuscript seen him state that this is done only in the supers.

"Since there is no brood nest disturbance it can be done in almost any weather" --Walt Wright (see above reference)

&gt; I don't see where it would do any good to preform this only in the supers. By the time we put our first supers on here, about the May 1st, swarm season is about to start (our swarm season runs from May 15-June 15, give or take). And correct me if I am wrong, but the whole idea is to prevent swarming.

"It is done at the top of the over-wintered colony in late Winter" -- Walt Wright (see above reference) May is not late winter. Walt would be doing it sometime between Februay and Early March. He assured me, when I spoke to him, that Spring was not early enough.

&gt; Give me a page # where he states "This is only preformed in the supers."

See above reference. Look at the web site. Look at the diagrams and pictures. Brood is not involved in checkerboarding. Honey and empty combs are.

I do similar things to what you are doing (but less drastic). I'm not saying putting empty frames in the brood nest is a bad idea (in moderation). I'm saying it's not checkerboarding.

[peggjam]

"It is done at the top of the over-wintered colony in late Winter" -- Walt Wright (see above reference) May is not late winter. Walt would be doing it sometime between Februay and Early March. He assured me, when I spoke to him, that Spring was not early enough."

Walt must have bees that don't eat anything during the winter. My bees are in the upper box in late winter, and have started rearing brood. Guess I stumbled onto my own idea and will have to come up with a name for it. I would not be likely to open a hive in late Feb for anything other than feeding it. If your doing it that early, your absoultly right, I must not be checkerboarding, and as I see it, checkerboarding would have no advantage whatsoever for anyone in the north to preform, unless of course they wish to kill their bees. You could do the same thing by bottom supering in early April. Guess this isn't such a new and wonderful way of doing anything.

[wayacoyote]

Tom- I read the article in May BeeCulture, and we're both right. He Did say it would be hard for beginners (as you stated) for the reason I stated; insufficient spare combs. (He often asserts that a child can DO the manipulation.) But he also encourages even beginners to try it with the spare frames they have on a few hives if possible. That's what I'm resigned to do as I'm growing hives... Some hives get split for swarm reduction/ hive number growth. A few hives get Checkerboarded for the benefits of that.


Michael and Peggjam:
Don't symantics get in the way very often? My particular problem is one you are discussing, in an unlimited system (no queen excluder) how do we convey the difference between a body and a super? I'm particularly tongue-tied when talking to "traditional" (use excluders) or beginning beeks and have simply taken to calling everything a "box" since I can't think of a sysinct (spp?) way to say it.

Toe-May-Toe / Toe-Mah-Toe eh?

What Walt quite clearly states include:
1) Get the book and read it yourself... For the price of 2.5 gallons of gas (or less), you'll get much more in return.

2) It doesn't include separating brood or brood frames in anyway.

3) NM/CB consistes of manipulations to the "Box" directly above (but not including) the brood. (Excellent diagrams on page 55, BeeCulture, May 2006, which are part of a great Suppliment article to the book and addresses different wintering configurations which has been my recent interest).

4) NM/CB by definition is currently limited to use of pre-draw and empty comb, Not combless frames. Walt IS interested in the effects of putting combless frames in the hive before the normal onset of white wax. And he and Michael have even prescribed an experiment along these lines. But as NM/CB is described todate by its developer, it specifies that empty comb is used. (Remember my comment to Tom above on what Walt says is WHY it is hard for beginners? Lack of spare drawn comb... if it could be done with anything less, then any beginner could buy extra frames and not be limited from the method.)

And lastly
5)Get the book and read it yourself... I've found Walt to be a very generous man to those who've taken this step and is always inviting me to stop by his place. But it would be wasted time on both our parts if I didn't have the jist and the terminology in place before I did.
Get the Book

Waya

[ June 02, 2006, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: wayacoyote ]

[peggjam]

Waya

I've got the "book" and have read it cover to cover a "few" times. I guess Walt's metheod used in MB's way, has NO basic value to me. I don't have a honey cap so described in any of my hives in Feb/March. Putting on an empty super would be esier and work just as good, but would be pointless at that time of year. My manipulations all take place in the broodnest, and develops a very strong colony, and, you can do it with foundation. And the added benifit of no swarming. Like I said, I need to figure out a name for it, get a copyright, and start selling it :D :D :D .

[Michael Bush]

&gt;I guess Walt's metheod used in MB's way

It's not my way. It's Walt's way.

You're doing some variation of what I'm doing (I haven't had the opportunity to try checkerboarding for many of the reasons you list) and what Dee Lusby is doing and I'm sure many others are doing. It would be nice to have a simple, unambiguous term to describe the manipulation of opening the brood nest in two words or less.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm

[wayacoyote]

Peggjam, sounds like you SHOULD write an article for the mags at least. I'm interested. I also corrupted Walt's Checkerboarding this year since I too had foundation instead of comb. I'm interested in what you do as well. For Small Cell users, early spring is supposed to be the best time to draw foundation. However, that's so short for us that I can't ever find it on the calendar.

Waya

[FordGuy]

pepper, check PMs

[Walts-son-in-law]

This one I definitely have to print for Walt. He will probably weigh in within a couple of days.

[FordGuy]

also, is it generally OK to post snippets from the manuscript, as long as citation is made?

[Alienor]

Hi, peggjam,
I tried a similiar method last year with 30 of my hives because of lack of empty comb. (I did checker-board another 38 hives regularly so I can talk about both methods.)
I did it with empty frames and just starter strips in them.
It worked fine but it was no checker-boarding.
My swarm time is also May-June and we don't overwinter on honey.
I did checker-board in mid of March when the willows start to bloom and I do the first inspections of the hives.
We have frosty days until April and it was no problem.
The hives with the starter strips did fine but at the end of the season the harmony got lost. They were angry, robbery took place, and it was blaaahhhh.
I can't tell details but in September most of them supercedured AGAIN.
This was something I realized in Winter/Spring when I checked the hives and nowhere in that hives was a marked queen anymore.
In summary: checker-boarding is much more easier and fewer work and more safe in swarm prevention and honey harvest.
I'm a "lazy" beekeeper with problems with my back and checker-boarding is perfect for me.
Last year I got 102kg in average from my bees, the average in my area was 50% and it was an extraordinary year. Normal it is around 25-35kg.....
I'm very happy with checker boarding and will thank Walt for the rest of my life for sharing!

[peggjam]

"I did checker-board in mid of March when the willows start to bloom and I do the first inspections of the hives."

If you don't winter with honey, what excactly did you checkerboard?? "Checkerboarding" can only be done in the supers, and is done only once during the year, in late winter. Which pretty much leaves out us northern producers, because our "honeycap" is located in the top of the broodnest, and it would be just plain silly to move honey out of reach of the cluster in Feb/March when they need it the most.....which doesn't count as "checkerboarding". Such a narrow defination pretty much leaves us northners out, so we'll have to come up with our own term for "checkerboarding" which is done in the broodnest in April/Early May. I also don't make any distention between drawn comb and foundation.....either works as well as the other.

"I'm very happy with checker boarding and will thank Walt for the rest of my life for sharing!"

But are you really "Checkerboarding"...narrow defination says it can't be done in the broodnest.

[ikeepbees]

Checkerboarding is basicly the act of openning up the broodnest.Peggjam,

This is incorrect. Walt's methods involve manipulating the honey above the brood nest. No manipulations are made in the brood nest.

In swarm prevention mostly what you are looking to do is remove the honey filled frames from the broodnest.Peggjam,

This may be your preferred method of swarm prevention, but it has nothing to do with Walt Wright's nectar management, or "checkerboarding" techniques.

The idea is to open up the broodnest, has very little to do with the honey supers. As the bees get ready to swarm, they backfill the broodnest with honey, the idea of checkerboarding is to remove this honey, so the bees "think" they are not ready to swarm. True checkerboarding is done only in the broodnest, not the supers.Peggjam,

Again, this is incorrect. The idea in checkerboarding is not to open up the brood nest. The idea is to open up the honey above the brood nest, and therefore prevent the broodnest from being backfilled with honey. This results in a brood nest with a large volume, which results in a large population of bees.

Empty comb is empty comb, wether drawen or undrawen, dosen't matter, it still works. It simiply a matter of alternating a brood comb with an empty one, and removing the honey filled ones, either to another box, or hive, or extracted. It's not difficult, and anyone can do it.Peggjam,

In Walt's experience, it is not that simple. And empty comb, by definition, cannot be "undrawen", or undrawn. Empty comb is drawn, and foundation is undrawn. Nectar Management, or "checkerboarding", as described by Walt in his writings, involves COMB, not foundation.

This is where I differ in my interpatation of what Walt was writing about. First off this must be done early enough in the spring to get the hive past the commit to swarm peroid. Most areas in the north would preform this around May 1st. There are very few areas in the north that would have any honey supers on that early in the year, so this manipulation would be performed on the top box, which in all likely hood would be the top brood chamber.Peggjam,

Your interpretations of Walt's writings is incorrect. I do not intend to offend you by saying so, but that is the truth.

Walt was initially motivated to explore swarm prevention because the available literature does a poor job of describing Southern beekeeping. The techniques he discovered work in his area, and they work in mine (South Alabama). They will work in your area if you ensure that the bees go into the Winter with sufficient honey so that they have honey overhead in the late Winter/early Spring.

I also don't make any distention between drawn comb and foundation.....either works as well as the other.Walt's experiences indicate otherwise, and that is why checkerboarding addresses the use of comb, not foundation.

[Alienor]

Hi, peggjam,
again:
opening the broodnest is NOT checker-boarding!
Checker-boarding leaves the broodnest untouched.

To your question:
my bees over winter in 3 deeps.
In Fall they get lots of food and usually the top chamber is full with it and the cluster is in the middle box. The bottom box is full of pollen.
In March the cluster is in the top box with a little bood.
So I take away the empty bottom box, put the top box on the bottom board and do the checker boarding with the empty middle box and a new box with honey/food comb which was formerly brood comb.
In the deep with the cluster are enough frames empty that there isn't a closed cap of honey, or there is just an inch which doesn't matter.
The bees perceive (?) the open space and have this way enough food nearby for bad weather.
In April when flight weather is available they are going to fill the bottom box with pollen and the brood nest flows up into the other deeps.
Around 15.April I put the honey supers on.
It works.

Sorry for saying this so drastic but you are wrong if you don't make a difference between comb and foundation.
The bees make this difference!
Comb is empty space that needs filling.
Foundation is just a wall and works like a separator.
I observed that the bees are faster doing nature comb than building up cells on foundation.
Another point is that they need to have their brood comb able to vibribe.
If you look close to fresh brood comb you will see that they do not build down completely to the bottom bar.
The reason is that the foragers dance on the comb and show the other bees the direction of the nectar source. While dancing the comb begins to vibrate with a frequency of 260hz.
So all bees on this frame get the information to come and look closer to the dancer.
This vibrations work best on nature comb.
Foundation is too thick and the bees need to chew it down which is heavy-going.
In the honey supers where is no need for that vibrations they work well on foundation and work it complete down to the bottom bar.

So you can't compare comb with foundation.

[peggjam]

ikeepbees

Maybe you should read the entire thread.

"They will work in your area if you ensure that the bees go into the Winter with sufficient honey so that they have honey overhead in the late Winter/early Spring."

No this will not work in my area. I would not remove honey (checkerboard) in Feb/March from reach of the cluster. And considering that I winter in 2 boxes, both of which are brood chambers, and checkerboarding is done ONLY in the supers, what is there to checkerboard? What I put on a super, and the next day go down and checkerboard the same super into a fourth super??? Walts metheod may work for southerners, but will not work for northerners.


Alienor:
"So I take away the empty bottom box, put the top box on the bottom board and do the checker boarding with the empty middle box and a new box with honey/food comb which was formerly brood comb."

Your running into the same problems I had when I was doing "checkerboarding". If you read Walt's manuscript, he DOES NOT reverse the bodies. He only works on the very top box of the hive, WHICH is NOT part of the broodnest. Your not checkerboarding either. Your MANIPULATING the brood chambers, which is NOT CHECKERBOARDING. Sorry, you can join me in my new club "Thought I was Checkerboarding, But turns Out I wasn't".


"Sorry for saying this so drastic but you are wrong if you don't make a difference between comb and foundation."

For what I do, there IS NO DIFFERENCE.

"The reason is that the foragers dance on the comb and show the other bees the direction of the nectar source. While dancing the comb begins to vibrate with a frequency of 260hz."

I haven't heard this before, have any links to pertant studies?

"So you can't compare comb with foundation."

I only use starter strips, so I can compare it if I want, besides, it works for me, I have no problems with it. It's only normal for bees to be quicker on drawn frames, BUT, if you don't have drawn frames foundation WILL work just as well.


In conclusion to this wonderful thread: I really am not "checkerboarding" according to Walt's strict, narrow defination of the practice, but it doesn't really matter if you do this only in the supers, only in late winter, or only in the strictest defination of "checkerboarding". If YOU do this in the broodchambers, AND it prevents swarming, AND it makes you feel like you have actually done something, AND your hive is booming, what difference does it make what you call it???????????????????????????????? To all who placed such a narrow defination on this practice, (or pointed out this narrow defination), thank you, it has been interesting. To all those who straightened my thinking out without reading the entire thread, thank you. And to all those who think their're checkerboarding but really arn't: my condolances, and a hearty welcome to the club!!!!!!!!!!

[Alienor]

lol
"Your running into the same problems I had when I was doing "checkerboarding". If you read Walt's manuscript, he DOES NOT reverse the bodies. He only works on the very top box of the hive, WHICH is NOT part of the broodnest. Your not checkerboarding either. Your MANIPULATING the brood chambers, which is NOT CHECKERBOARDING. Sorry, you can join me in my new club "Thought I was Checkerboarding, But turns Out I wasn't"."

Sorry, you are wrong!
We're taking about 2 different hive staples and methods.
My broodnests are only in the top box in March.
What sense is in to let 2 empty boxes unter the brood box and and checker-board the hive with comb & food comb up to a 4th and 5th stage?
I have enough frames for this but after supering I will need a ladder....
I MUST put away the bottom box for comb renewing(?) and why shall I that also empty middle box stay put there?
This step is NOT the checker-boarding and can also made some weeks later but why shall I wait if I can do all that at once?
I also put fresh bottom boards under, this is also NOT checker boarding.
Instead of reversing the boxes I can also take just away the middle box and checker board with 2 new. But why shall I carry 2 new boxes to the hive if 1 is right there???

Checker-boarding IS to put 2 boxes with alternated empty comb and food/honey frames ON THE TOP OF THE BROOD CHAMBER WITHOUT TOUCHING THAT BOX INSIDE.
I DO checker-boarding in the correct way, believe me.
The other steps are just to spare way and extra work.

And no, it is not correct to call a manipulation "checker-boarding" if it isn't.
The definition is very strict because it describes a very precise step at the right place and the right time.
Every other procedure is you-name-it but not CB.
Walt's hives have a different build-up, unlike mine, and so he has no need to take away a box or to reverse them.
If I had honey in shallows and overwinter on honey I would do it exactly as he. But here in Germany we don't over winter on honey.

And I don't understand why you're so upset?

[ScadsOBees]

http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/ABJ%20Copies/BC%20May%202006.pdf

From the link Michael posted, maybe I'm not reading it correctly, in the first diagram, that looks suspiciously like reversing the boxes. First step.

[peggjam]

"Sorry, you are wrong!
We're taking about 2 different hive staples and methods.
My broodnests are only in the top box in March.
What sense is in to let 2 empty boxes unter the brood box and and checker-board the hive with comb & food comb up to a 4th and 5th stage?
I have enough frames for this but after supering I will need a ladder....
I MUST put away the bottom box for comb renewing(?) and why shall I that also empty middle box stay put there?"

Now your starting to get the picture. On pages 34, 35, and 36 of his manuscript, Walt deals directly with hive body reversal. He DOES NOT DO IT. You are, so therefore what you ARE doing is a broodnest manipulation. Checkerboarding does not involve any broodnest manipulations. And in the link MB provided, there is referance to very tall hives being a problem.


"This step is NOT the checker-boarding and can also made some weeks later but why shall I wait if I can do all that at once?
I also put fresh bottom boards under, this is also NOT checker boarding.
Instead of reversing the boxes I can also take just away the middle box and checker board with 2 new. But why shall I carry 2 new boxes to the hive if 1 is right there???"

Checkerboarding is done in late winter, involving only the top box or super, does not involve any broodnest manipulations and what your doing is everything that everyone else is saying is not checkerboarding...again, welcome to the club.


This is part of the confusion about checkerboarding. In his manuscript, he doesn't mention anything about only supers, but in his articles he does? In the manuscript, he is very clear about hivebody reversals, but the diagram does look like he is doing that. I was told that I wasn't checkerboarding because I was working in the broodnest, and that wasn't checkerboarding.
I guess you all need to actually read Walts manuscript. I am not going to argue with you. To each their own.

[Michael Bush]

If there is no brood in the boxes being moved around, then there is no brood nest manipulation taking place. Reversing the hive bodies and splitting the brood nest is a typical swarm prevention method and that's what Walt is saying he does NOT do. I can see rearranging the boxes below the brood nest to end up with a checkerboard above the brood. I haven't done it, but that would seem the only practical way I could do it since my cluster is almost always in the top box by mid winter.


&gt;I really am not "checkerboarding" according to Walt's strict, narrow defination of the practice

Since Walt coined the term to describe a very specific manipulation I don't think it's a "narrow defnition". It IS the definition.

[Walts-son-in-law]

peggjam

Don’t be upset by your misinterpretation – my fault; not yours. In the articles prepared for B. Culture, your circumstance was treated, but in the “manuscript” the descriptions are in reference to the wintering configuration recommended. For your brood in the top deep in late winter, CB is not applicable. If you check the URL that MB quoted, you will find that reversal and maintaining empty comb at the top are all you need to do – if done early enough. We will fix that in the next update.

What is “new and wonderful” in the manuscript are two observations on the swarm process:

1. The overhead honey reserve limits brood nest expansion, and reaching that limit starts swarm preps.
2. The nectar “congestion” of backfilling the upper part of the brood nest is the first action of swarm preps.

Neither of those observations was recognized in the existing literature prior to my studies.

The checkerboarding manipulation is just an easy way to break up the overhead barrier to continued brood nest expansion. Since you have brood to the top, that is not a problem for you. No CB required.

I have no doubt that what you have been doing would deter swarming. A major upheaval of the brood nest would stop them in their tracks. But it would need precision timing. To avoid brood chilling they would have to have the population built to swarm prep stage and not be developed to the swarm commit stage. That’s a two to three week window.

And all colonies in a given location are not at the same stage of development at the same time. Just monitoring for the right conditions would be time consuming.

If you just reverse and add comb you will not stop growth, and will likely gain more population and honey production. In your climate area, requirements for swarm prevention are simplified. Just monitor for continued population and brood nest growth through the swarm prep period. And don’t let them fill the empty comb at the top. Add supers, as required, to prevent rebuilding a reserve with nectar. In this way you are applying the principles of NM without the CB manipulation.

Walt

P.S. I suspect the thread where you and MB had your flap is dead by now. The next time the subject comes up, feel free to relay the above, all or any part, to an active thread. And thanks for doing that.

To all with an interest in this thread:

So, it isn’t dead yet.

Perhaps some background would help.

I went through a flirtation with double deeps for a few seasons, but didn’t like the effects. In my area, on about a 50/50 basis, some colonies would use the bottom deep for pollen and some would fill the upper with honey on the main flow. The brood nest was either up or down in the other box. I decided to replace the upper deep with two shallows because the bees much prefer to rear brood in the larger expanse of deep frames. That worked – the brood is now reliably in the deep brood chamber.

Side note to MB: I can concur with your reasons for all-medium hives. In spite of only an inch in comb height the bees’ preference for brooding is not nearly as acute for mediums as it is for shallows. But I don’t want to handle a full medium of honey, either. That inch is almost 25% more, but seems much more to this old man.

At that time, wintering in a deep brood chamber and two shallows (one might be a partial) of honey overhead it was time to consider those colonies that put pollen in the lower deep of the double deep configuration. They should have the opportunity to store pollen below the brood nest if that is a factor in their natural survival strategy. As a compromise with the bees for the undesirable quarters we provide (they hate the break in functional comb between boxes) we moved to the pollen box maneuver. When they expand the brood nest through the first shallow overhead it is moved to the bottom board. It will be used for CB or brood nest expansion, depending on the timing and strength of the colony. It is not recommended to use this comb in supers because it was on the colony (perhaps) when mite control chemicals were applied. I color code all boxes on hives when chemicals are applied with a dash of off-colored paint. That way chemicals do not get into marketable honey.

The pollen box maneuver can be construed as a type of reversal. But it is the only reversal used in the present system. With brood reliably in the deep, other manipulations revolve about the basic overwintered brood nest. Not that when wintering in the double deep an empty on the bottom was reversed in late winter to put that box back into service for its intended purpose.

When northern beekeepers learn that the bees did not eat their way into the upper box in early winter, some of this flap will go away. The cluster consumes very little honey in early winter. Most of the bees are in a state of semi-suspended animation. Like other insects in hibernation, they require little food intake in that state. Honey is used as fuel in the cluster to provide heat, but if the band of insulating bees is adequate, very little honey is needed.

Here’s what happens in Yankeeland: In October, when northern frost/freeze weather knocks out field forage, the colony stills has substantial brood. As the brood emerges, there is no nectar to fill the brood nest. (In my area the colony normally does). The colony “knows” better than to try to winter on empty comb. They need the fuel. They relocate the cluster up into the upper deep on solid capped honey. The bottom deep is abandoned in early winter. This occurs some time after the beek’s last hive opening, on a mild day, and gives the impression that they ate their way into the upper deep. Feeding is iffy in mostly full time clustering weather – they need cluster-breaking weather to move the feed. When northern beeks learn to feed simultaneously with brood nest closeout, the bees will likely start winter brood in the lower box. Once brood is started they are locked in place and upward movement is limited to expansion.

I concede that the above is an extrapolation of what I see in Tennessee and may not be the whole story. Never having kept bees further north, I’m hanging out somewhat. But even raising the questions should push back the frontiers a little.

You can find more detail I some earlier Bee Culture articles. The editor takes great liberties with my article titles. He’s certain he knows what will get the attention of subscribers.

Walt

[Alienor]

""Here’s what happens in Yankeeland: In October, when northern frost/freeze weather knocks out field forage, the colony stills has substantial brood. As the brood emerges, there is no nectar to fill the brood nest. (In my area the colony normally does). The colony “knows” better than to try to winter on empty comb. They need the fuel. They relocate the cluster up into the upper deep on solid capped honey. The bottom deep is abandoned in early winter. This occurs some time after the beek’s last hive opening, on a mild day, and gives the impression that they ate their way into the upper deep. Feeding is iffy in mostly full time clustering weather – they need cluster-breaking weather to move the feed. When northern beeks learn to feed simultaneously with brood nest closeout, the bees will likely start winter brood in the lower box. Once brood is started they are locked in place and upward movement is limited to expansion.""

This is exactly what's happening at my area but I wasn't realizing it in that clearness until last winter.
When the first frosty days occur the brood nest in my middle box is often still large and the other frames are full of honey.
But in Spring they are always in the top box and the fresh brood also.
I never managed to feed "to the point". If I feed early the bees store everything over head.
If I feed lately it was too cold and they couldn't take the food for backfilling the broodnest.
So I decided to feed early to be sure they have enough storage.
I always thought they would "eat the way up" but it wasn't.
Last year I gave the food in the first days of Oct, and temps were really high (+18°C) for two weeks. Still brood on 6-8 frames.
After that weather changed to low temps and lots of rain for another 4 weeks. In mid Nov there was just one day with temps higher than +5°C , after that we had frost until March.
And in Nov there were already in the top box.
So they must have moved immediately after the brood emerged.
And not only one hive but all in the yard.

I never had the idea that they were moving up so early before I read Walt's articles and the script. I'm learning so much new about my bees and I'm not really a newbee after 12 years of beekeeping, I thought.....

[Walts-son-in-law]

To All

In the blurb posted yesterday there was a significant omission. In the description of the pollen box maneuver, the text jumped from moving the shallow of brood to the bottom board to what to do with that box of comb the following season. A description of what happens in between was left out. Roy had already sent it when I noticed. Insert the following in the middle of that paragraph:

During the main flow brood nest reduction, the brood will be replaced by pollen stored for the long term. Long term storage is indicated by the honey-glazing, protective coating. We were somewhat surprised that it was not stored for winter use, but was mostly consumed in the fall buildup of rearing wintering, young bees. But use at that time did improve wintering. In the late winter colony strength was more uniform – no weaklings. While I don’t fully understand all the whys, I report what I see.

Then, pick up the text about what to do with the essentially empty box next season

[peggjam]

Thanks for the clarification. It helps clear up some of the issues I had with what I was reading and what others were saying about my interpatation of what I was reading. Again, thanks.

[Forrest]

Great read on this thread, and I just can't resist putting in my two cents: I started keeping bees in 1961 in southwest Washington state-up in the Cascades. My mentor was an old timer by the name of Ray Woolford who kept around 40 colonies. Never moved his bees and was in his 50th year of keeping bees at that time. Now granted I was only eleven years old at the time, but I can still hear his voice saying "and this is what we call checkerboarding, son". He was describing (as we were 'working' the bees) what he was doing as he 'checkerboarded' the broodnest precisely as Peggjam describes it. This was just about fruit tree bud burst time so it was still frosting at night.

I have always done it that way and always called it checkerboarding. Now maybe Ray knew Walt (I first heard of Walt on this forum last spring), but if so, they wouldn't have agreed on the definition of the term checkerboarding. Cascades beekeeping is a bit different than southern Alabama beekeeping and what is called checkerboarding there is NOT what some people in the cold climates call checkerboarding. "Checkerboarding" the 'Bama way here would be a disaster here I think, at least as a stand alone procedure. When I kept bees on the south coast of Oregon, mid seventies to mid-eighties I still called it checkerboarding-because that's what it was, a methodical manipulation of the existing brood chamber(s) configuration resulting in a checkerboard pattern within the brood chamber.

Now I took a couple decades off from beekeeping and have just started again. Where I live now we have snow on the ground about 5 months of the year and hard frosts for a month on either end of those five months. So wintering (pretty much unattended) here will require a three deep configuration by my estimation. As of this date, on packages started first week of April this year-in the bare----no, not me, silly-----new hives on foundation, I have removed a super of honey from each, the queens have shut down pretty much (1 to 1-1/2 frames of brood-barely) the hive bodies are chocked full and I am going to enjoy the winter snows!

I am trying the poly hives since we do see 15-20 below here at times and they will not be migratory. My only maintenence will be keeping the snow from piling up at the entrances so I'll use oversized plywood 'lids' over the hive tops. In the spring I will do basically what Alienor does: remove the bottom hb and use it for new packages, verify the pollen stores in the remaining hbs (drop them straight down) and feed globals as needed AND as soon as the fruit bloom starts I will be CHECKERBOARDING the broodnest without creating any possibility of brood chill (and adding supers to stay well ahead of them). I will continue this for the mid/late May thru early July swarm period and will use some of those frames removed from the checkerboarding to assist new hives in building the three brood chamber configs.

So there it is, that's my story and I am sticking to it!

I sure do miss Mr. Woolford........ :(

[spacemoose]

how 'bout calling it chess boarding ? then ?

[Edward G]

In the fall we worry about starvation and getting enough honey into the hive for winter stores.

In the spring we worry about swarming and having too much honey in the hive and not enough empty comb.

Oh well...

You gotta love it.

Ed.

[Walts-son-in-law]

Forrest,

Very interesting input!

Walt

[peggjam]

I went back and searched up this thread, cause it seems some would still like to argue about what has already been hashed out. So here it is again...maybe everyone should read it this time.

[wayacoyote]

Thanks!
It's on my schedule to C/B as soon as I get a break in the weather enough to open the hives.

I'm intending to stop by Walt's next week if he's free. I need to know how much of a "cap" of honey needs to be left between the cluster and the C/B'ed bodies. Anyone know?

Waya

[peggjam]

I would think that it would have to be enough that there is no brood on the frames you remove to checkerboard.......but that's me thinking again :D .

[sc-bee]

Thanks peggjam for digging it up. I missed it somehow the first go-round. It helped answer some questions I had.
With weather as warm as it has been if it holds, I should be getting ready for my Nectar Management Manipulation soon. Thanks to all who participated in this thread!
But special thanks to Walt, his friends who helped along the way and Walt's-son-in-Law ;)

[BerkeyDavid]

Hi all. THere is one important point that I have not seen discussed on CB/NM lately. That is that CB induces Supercedure.

So you need to stay out of the broodnest once the flow is rolling! I had a boomer hive go queenless last year. I think the reason was that I inadvertently destroyed the supercedure cell while checking out hive. As Walt says:

The downside of automatic Supercedure is that upgrade queen you installed the previous season costyou time and bucks. Take some solace from the fact a supersedure queen from a strong colony is superior to anything produced by the queen sources, and queen characteristics carry over for several generations. The upside is that the need for systematic requeening goes away. The CB/NM colonies requeen themselves on an annual basis and its free. That is a time and expense advantage. You can upgrade genetics at your leisure. Nectar and Swarm Mangagement, May 2006 Bee Culture (http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/ABJ%20Copies/BC%20May%202006.pdf)