Foundationless frames and drone comb

[longarm]

Going foundationless in a hive or 2 this Spring. Anything I need to know about drone comb?

In other words I have heard stories that the bees will sometimes draw numerous frames of just drone comb.. does this need to be addressed in some way by the beekeep?

[tony350i]

Just move it to the out side of the brood nest,
If you take it out all together, the bees will draw the new foundationless frame as drone again, which is frustrating (well it was for me).
If you leave it in the brood box they don’t all ways fill it up with drone brood,
When the bees think they have enough they will switch to worker cells.


Are you thinking off going natural cell?


Tony

[Patrick Scannell]

I've given my hives a few frames of drone foundation to draw out first. Then they seem more inclined to draw frames of 100% worker cells.

[wade]

Hey longarm,

I haven't had trouble that way. But then I haven't gone cold turkey from foundation-drawn either. I highly doubt that it matters which size cell the foundation you're using is. Its about them not having enough drone cells drawn out.

I haven't tried this yet but the premise seems sound enough. Before going straight to natural cell, have the bees draw out a frame or two of the green drone comb. Then put that in with the empty frames when you get it going. I have a big stack of those green things ready just for that.

I've also found that when the comb-drawing season comes near its end (ie late June/July) they'll draw out more drone comb if they're working empty frames and have become used to them. Those may just be big honkin' nectar cells though, I don't know.

[wade]

I was writing while you were posting, Patrick. :cool:

[longarm]

Patrick and Wade,
Do you mean Pierco drone comb?

Tony,
Yes I am planning at least one or 2 hives as NC. IF they draw out their own comb as fast or faster than they draw comb on foundation as I have read, and that the cell size is presumably what they 'want' and not what is being forced upon them, etc then I see no reason not to use NC. So they'll draw the occassional piece at a tilt, etc and I'll have to cut and wire it back in. Not a problem as I see it at this point as I like messing around in the hives anyway and don't have so many (yet) that it is a bother. It is, admittedly, another experiment though. We'll see.

[drobbins]

why not just let them draw the first empty frame you give them as drone comb and be done with it
it's cheap
if you're ambitious you can do "drone trapping" smile.gif

Dave

[Michael Bush]

Bees are not foolish. They have a threshold of drone they want. Most people when the first do foundationless are putting it in a hive of all worker foundation where the bees have felt the need for drone for some time. They usually build the first frame or two all drone. If you remove them, they will do it again. If you remove those, they will do it again. To get them to stop, you need to leave the drone comb in the hive. Just move it to the outer edge of the brood nest, where they would have built it in the first place if they were given the chance, and give them some more frames. Once they have reached between 10% and 15% drone comb, they will stop. This is the normal threshold.

[longarm]

Thanks again MB and Dave.
Again.. NC sounds like the right move for me (and of course the bees).

[wade]

<Patrick and Wade,
Do you mean Pierco drone comb?>

Yes

[Patrick Scannell]

<Patrick and Wade,
Do you mean Pierco drone comb?>

No. I use unwired drone foundation in wood and wire medium frames.

Drone trapping and general management is easier if worker and drone brood are on different frames.

[sierrabees]

I would move the drone to the outside as described above and if the queen lays in it I would just pull it and put it in the freezer two or three days then give it back to them. It makes a nice way to disrupt the varroa mite spring buildup.

Since bees are opportunists, beekeepers should be the same.

[Maine_Beekeeper]

Hi Longarm -
This past summer I switched to starter strip for in a couple of hives - I gave small cell starter strip in two circumstances:
I had a hive that I had pulled a frame from for a nuc and replaced with starter strip - it was the number 2 frame (second to the outside)in the top box of a two deep. I went back to find it totally drawn out with drone comb- capped. (I think this was July) - I cut the entire comb out and chucked it since it was a perfect opportunity to do drone trapping.
I also knocked down a very strong 2 deep hive to one box by making nucs out of half of the brood and stores - then I replaced the top box with a medium of small cell starter strip - this was drawn out quite well with the brood area a little smaller than the honey area but not as big as drone comb anywhere. Cell size wasn't perfectly uniform but wasn't crazy looking either... When they had about 70% drawn that box I added a second medium of starter strip. Same thing - they drew it out very nicely (and fast - I was shocked). This hive went into winter PACKED with honey and a little brood in the two mediums and the bottom box packed with brood.
I think this is the long way of saying MB is right - they do what they perceive they need to do.