another newbee with questions

[John F]

This must be the time newbees come out of the woodwork!

I've hit up the local library and read through their selection. My education process had me doing searches and WHAMMO, I find this place.

For a couple of weeks I've been glued to this site trying to absorb it all. You folks are great.

Now the questions:

Bees: I think I've been all over the internet looking for packages to order. I am guessing that just a few breeders are on the internet, so I will probably need to actually dial the phone. I am interested in the small cell technique. Mike B. has answered daknoodle's question with "just use SC foundation". So then, I don't have to stick to breeders that advertise SC bees?

Bee Race: I plan on having 2 hives in a city. I think I would need the most gentle bees there are. It seems that gentleness is a trait that may show up more in some races but can be in all races. In terms such as http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Beekeeping:_Honey_Bee_Races, What advice can you give? One of the books I read by a well known auther states to just start with italians. The above page (at link) makes me think carniolans would be perfect. Mike's feral queens also seem interesting to me. Are NWCs different than carniloans? (How do you pronounce that anyways?)

Chemical free: Ok, this has been a bit confusing. I read where some state they are chemical free and then later that they have used OA treatments. OA isn't chemical free. It may be organic, I have no idea. Does chemical free mean that you do not treat with anything, not even antibiotics? That is what I want to do. No treatments at all until I see it isn't viable.

My approach is to use small cell. Seems to work for some and at the stage I'm in it can't hurt. I will use a screened bottom (didn't say bottom board because it will have no bottom entrance) and a top (or mid) entrance. I am hoping to get bees that are sturdy. If I get AFB I will just kill the hive and start a new one. Seem reasonable?

<For the folks in Colorado> I called my city and asked about beekeeping. The answer was, "I don't know what that is." I replied that it meant keeping honey bees and the person asked, "Will you be keeping it in your house or outside?" huh? I asked if they meant a bee or beehive with the word "it" and got a, "what?" Ok, the code says that wild animals are prohibited. Wild animals are defined as: ... bee or beehive ... Is there anyone in the Thornton area I can talk to? How about Adams County? What other legal issues do I need to concern myself with? I sent an email to someone listed as the president of The Northern Colorado Bee Association and got no response. It appears to be defunct. Is that so?

If you were to just drill a hole in the side of a hive body for an entrance, how big would it be? Is it better to have one big hole or a series of smaller holes? I actually plan on building an entrance section, but I do need the hole size.

Thanks folks! I'm sure I will have more.

John

[Michael Bush]

>Bees: I think I've been all over the internet looking for packages to order. I am guessing that just a few breeders are on the internet, so I will probably need to actually dial the phone.

Most beekeepers are over 60. Many don't know what the internet is. smile.gif Yes you'll probably have to dial the phone, but some of them have web sites.

>I am interested in the small cell technique. Mike B. has answered daknoodle's question with "just use SC foundation". So then, I don't have to stick to breeders that advertise SC bees?

If you can get SC bees that's a plus. It puts you one step ahead of the game, but it's not at all necessary. The bees will regress if you let them.

>Bee Race: I plan on having 2 hives in a city. I think I would need the most gentle bees there are. It seems that gentleness is a trait that may show up more in some races but can be in all races.

IMHO I'd go for Carni or Italians or Caucasian if you want calm. But then that's most of them smile.gif Russians are more iffy although some are nice enough. Any F1 hybrid has the potential for some hot second genereation bees (Starline or Midnite). And I've had some Buckfasts that were very gentle for decades and then got some that were visious. But any of them can turn mean. Most of them, most of the time are quite nice.

>One of the books I read by a well known auther states to just start with italians. The above page (at link) makes me think carniolans would be perfect.

You'll probably like either one.

>Mike's feral queens also seem interesting to me.

I like them.

>Are NWCs different than carniloans?

They are a particular strain of carniolans.

>(How do you pronounce that anyways?)

Car Knee OH lans

>Chemical free: Ok, this has been a bit confusing. I read where some state they are chemical free and then later that they have used OA treatments. OA isn't chemical free.

When I started I got the impression that if you didn't use Terramycin, not only would your bees die, f you didn't use it, but the authorities would come and burn all your eqiupment. After two years of using it I quit. I used nothing whatsoever until the late ninties. Seems like about 1999. That's a couple of years after my bees started mysteriously dying. I eventually figure out it was Varroa mites and the only option I could find was Apistan. I used it for a couple of years. During this time (that same couple of years) I also used some winergreen oil and some grease patties. (I was paranoid of them dying). Then I discovered regression to small cell. During regression I used FGMO fog and OA. Whether OA is a "chemical" in the truest sense of the word it is not an Organphosphate, like check mite, or some other systemic poison like Apistan. It's just a naturally occuring organic acid. Yes, I agree, it's better to not need to use it and once my bees were regressed I haven't really needed anything. I've never used any of the other chemicals including Checkmite and Fumidil.

>It may be organic, I have no idea. Does chemical free mean that you do not treat with anything, not even antibiotics?

That would really be my interpretation of that concept. Nothing would be best.

>That is what I want to do. No treatments at all until I see it isn't viable.

If you learn to monitor the mite levels, go to small cell, and get tracheal mite resistant stock, you should be able to do this. And if it's failing you'll have some feedback.

>My approach is to use small cell. Seems to work for some and at the stage I'm in it can't hurt. I will use a screened bottom (didn't say bottom board because it will have no bottom entrance) and a top (or mid) entrance. I am hoping to get bees that are sturdy. If I get AFB I will just kill the hive and start a new one. Seem reasonable?

Seems reasonable to me.

>If you were to just drill a hole in the side of a hive body for an entrance, how big would it be?

It depends on the time of year and the strength of the hive. A 1" hole will do for most situations except a booming hive in a flow. But sometimes I shrink them down to 1/4" by 1/4" on a nuc that's getting robbed or as big as 3/4" by 19" on a booming hive (you can only to this "warm ways" e.g. with the hive turned with the entrance on the long side).

>Is it better to have one big hole or a series of smaller holes?

Tough question. I'm not sure. I've seen better ability to guard an entrance with 1/4" hardware cloth on it. I wonder if they would have an easier time gaurding it or if they'd have a harder time finding all the entrances. smile.gif I don't think the bees care.

> I actually plan on building an entrance section, but I do need the hole size.

Minimum size for a queen and drone and worker to get through without losing their pollen is 1/4". 1/5" will cause them to lose pollen. 1/6" will cause them to lose all their pollen, but they will still get in and out. 1/7" will stop them entirely.

Most hives, during a flow have an entrance at least 3/8" high (more often 3/4" high) and the width of the hive, wide open and still, sometimes on a booming hive, have traffic jams.

Mine usually have a 3/8" high the width of the hive by putting shims under a migratory cover or under the inner cover.

Here's one the long ways (19" wide) by 3/8" during the peak of the season:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/MigratoryTopEntrance2.JPG

That's a little bit of a traffic jam.

[SandyC]

Quote: "Most beekeepers are over 60."

Really???? I guess that makes me a baby bee too!!!!

[drobbins]

Michael,

with a top entrance like that, is rain blowing in not a problem?
seems like it would be good to have a lip over it like a telescoping cover for a wind break

Dave

[Michael Bush]

I am generailzing. smile.gif But they seem to be mostly older gentlemen with an occasional older lady and a few younger people interspersed. smile.gif

[daknoodle]

So I guess me turning 22 next week REALLY makes me young. Man and I thought I was getting old... :D lol

Doug

[John F]

Doug, old? 22 seems a half a lifetime ago.

Michael, Seems there are 3 newBees bouncing off your veil no matter how far you run. Hope we don't get labeled vicious. smile.gif

Really, thanks for your time!

John

[Michael Bush]

>Man and I thought I was getting old...

22. Wow! You ARE ancient. ;)

>22 seems a half a lifetime ago.

It was more than a half a lifteme ago for me. smile.gif None of my kids are that young.

[SandyC]

Doug, you are a year older than my eldest. She's not into bees though! ;)

[ December 09, 2005, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: SandyC ]

[Kieck]

John F:

I thought I would add that I've tried several races and strains of bees. None that I've had have been too hot to work, but I have seen some differences. In my opinion, Russians seem somewhat more aggressive than Italians or Carniolans, although I've had Italians that were hotter than Russians and Carniolans that fell somewhere in between. A lot of factors influence how aggressive your bees get.

I would recommend, based on limited experience, Michael Bush's feral stock. I got a queen from him, used the brood from that hive in others to produce new queens and eventually had three from his original stock. All were very gentle, good workers and showed high resistance to Varroa mites. I lost them after building up too much condensation in the hives over a strange winter spell (the hives were wrapped -- but that's another thread; if you're interested, you'll find a lot of opinions on wrapping for winter on this site). If you're interested in some really attractive, unique bees, I would encourage you to get some from Michael.

[Barry Digman]

<For the folks in Colorado> I called my city and asked about beekeeping. The answer was, "I don't know what that is." I replied that it meant keeping honey bees and the person asked, "Will you be keeping it in your house or outside?" huh? I asked if they meant a bee or beehive with the word "it" and got a, "what?" Ok, the code says that wild animals are prohibited. Wild animals are defined as: ... bee or beehive ... Is there anyone in the Thornton area I can talk to? How about Adams County? What other legal issues do I need to concern myself with?I'll save the Libertarian rant until the Tailgater forum opens up, but a bit of advice for the newbees.... don't ask yer city about keeping bees. Just do it, with consideration for your neighbors. Asking about ordinances just invites trouble. (and FWIW, bees are considered livestock in some places, not wild animals)
Aurora, CO has a fine city ordinance that's served as a model for some others. Check it out.
A recent issue of either Bee Culture or American Bee Journal has an article about legal issues for beeks. You can also search the Beesource forums using terms like "law" and "legal" for a couple of threads on the legal aspects of beekeeping. There are also a couple of helpful threads on insurance concerns if you're interested.

[Michael Bush]

This is certanly not to be construed as legal advice. Honestly, if it was me, I'd do as Coyote says except have a backup place you can move them if you have to. I wouldn't tell the neighbors either, since they will only imagine some horrible thing that is in no way reality. Just get them. Put them somewhere discrete and sooner or later the neighbors will figure it out. Hopefully, by then the bees will have been there for a year and they will realize the world didn't come to an end.

[John F]

coyote and Michael,

Well, SShhhh. I heard there was a guy near here that was going to do just that. smile.gif

By the way, my wife rolled her eyes and said, "You aren't going to call them from the home phone are you?" (Of course not.)

My hope was that the Aurora work had spread north a bit and that the ordinances for Thornton weren't up to date. When I heard that they thought I would be keeping a bee, i figured they didn't have a clue.

Libertarian rants can be emailed to me. I need more fuel for the rants I make on other lists. smile.gif

John

[Ben Brewcat]

Coyote and MB have it... leave town out of it. Be open with neighbors, and print out that Aurora legislation 'cuz it's great press. Get informed so you can answer the inevitable questions. This was a big concern of mine, but several neighbors came up to me either when I was working the hive or sitting a foot from the entrance staring inside smile.gif . They all wanted to ask questions or reminisce about Grandpa's hives back on the farm, so I've relaxed.

I'm a somewhat bug-phobic newbie (I believe in challenging my limitations), and loved my Italians. Very gentle; I don't wear gloves. My cats sit on the hive, I mow right around it (so does SWMBO), and if I got paid by the hour for time in that yard chair, pint and camera in hand, I wouldn't need a job! That's another thing that I think allayed neighbor parent's fears, seeing me out there all the time relaxing in a cloud of bees perfectly safe, or my friends retrieving a bocce ball from next to the hive during a yard party.

Jacob Udell was pres of the NCBA and I haven't heard from him in a while; I dunno what the scoop is with them. The http://www.bouldercountybeekeepers.org/ site has the upcoming meetings for Boulder County.

Welcome to CO beekeeping! (Feel free to PM me about BCBA or anything really as my email notification is down just lately...)

[Robert Hawkins]

<No treatments at all until I see it isn't viable.
>

Dangerous commitment. In Genetics it means you'll let em die before treating. Which I don't disagree with.

BTW, the next boulder mtg is Valentine's day. Plan on taking the wife. We'll meet somewhere for supper. PM me anytime.

I had no idea Thornton had rules like that. Are you sure or should i check further?

Hawk

[Michael Bush]

In my experience, if you go with small cell (or natural sized cell)you've got some chance of going without treatments. If you don't your bees are going to die from Varroa within one to three years, most likely in two.

[mdotson]

Try to make the hive or hives so they aren't immediately recoginzed. After more than a 20 year absence from beekeeping, I removed a swarm from my house. I painted the hive dark grey and set it in front of an outbuilding. We live in a sub-division and the neighbors all around me know the hive is there. Unless you really looked at it, it wouldn't be easily recognized as a beehive. I work the bees with a veil on, but in a short sleeve shirt. I have been stung once and that was on a very cloudy day. The bees are Cordovans and are very gentle.

[ December 11, 2005, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: mdotson ]

[John F]

<Robert Hawkins> In Genetics it means you'll let em die before treating.

<me> Yeah, that's the plan for now. I have an advantage at this point; I'm a beginner with hopes of becomming a hobbyist. My investment right now is in the school'n and I do not expect this to produce income. I have no qualms with folks that do treat, especially if their income depends on it. The viable comment does give me the out should AFB turn out to be a real frustration for me.

<Robert Hawkins> BTW, the next boulder mtg is Valentine's day. Plan on taking the wife. We'll meet somewhere for supper.

<me> Hmm, not sure if you are asking me out on a date or something? smile.gif

<Robert Hawkins> I had no idea Thornton had rules like that. Are you sure or should i check further?

<me> I looked it up online at the City home page. When you read it it looks like it was sorta added in later. As a side note, I chuckled with the response I got from the city workers and kind of let it go as a bit of ignorance but did consider that their deadpan reply might have been on purpose. Sort of a, "Ok, so what was it that I didn't just see?"

<Jon Kieckhefer> I would recommend, based on limited experience, Michael Bush's feral stock.

<me> Well, I did mention that his stock was interesting. It appears he is working on overwintering nucs and such and I certainly would be interested. His definition of gentle is what I need at my house, I would feel terrible if the neighbor kids got hurt because of this. One thing though, I do really think I should start where everyone starts and that's with a package. I may be off here, perhaps a nuc is good too? I'm not sure Michael is offering packages.

<Michael Bush> In my experience, if you go with small cell (or natural sized cell)you've got some chance of going without treatments. If you don't your bees are going to die from Varroa within one to three years, most likely in two.

<me> This seems reasonable to me. Stories like the success of the wild/feral russian bees tells me that it is in nature to find the balance of host/parasite. Some of us can work towards helping this (and do some learning along the way) since we do not have gigantic investments and do not require income from the endeavor. I have the advantage of piggybacking off of your experience. (Oh, and thanks for that.)

John

[ December 12, 2005, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: John F ]

[Michael Bush]

>One thing though, I do really think I should start where everyone starts and that's with a package. I may be off here, perhaps a nuc is good too?

If you can get a nuc somewhere local a nuc is nice. The downside is the nuc is often on some kind of frame that isn't what you want to run, such as deeps (typical) when you want to run mediums (which is what I would do).

>I'm not sure Michael is offering packages.

No. I have no real way to have enough bees to shake out packages in the spring. I am hoping to have nucs. I don't know if I can find a way to ship them.