Using Foundationless Frames or Starter Strips

[GeeBeeNC]

To prevent highjacking the other thread I'm starting a new one.

In the other tread Iddee made a comment that starter strips are not for newbees. I want to hear comments on why he thinks that way as well as what others think about the special considerations and skills required for using starter strips.

I have been beekeeping for less than a year, I purchased one established hive last July. After all the reading here I decided I wanted to regress my hive to small cell. I made sure my hive was level in both directions (no risk of water puddling on the bottom board since I use SBBs year round) and then inserted two starter strip frames per box near the center with drawn frames on either side.

Since then I did a walk away split and have continued to regress my comb. I am now at nearly a complete first regression of all frames in both hives. I am pleased with the quality of the drawn comb. What potential disasters did I miss? What cautions should I take to continue to avoid potential problems?

[ May 07, 2006, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: GeeBeeNC ]

[Tia]

I've been doing this for four years and I'd like to hear the answer, too. I guess the first time you do anything, you're a "newbie" so this newbie would like to know too.
By the way, GeeBee NC, you sound pretty knowledgeable for someone with less than one year's experience. I think I could learn from you!

[iddee]

Many times when you start with 10 frames of strips, and VERY often when you start with 10 empty frames, the bees will draw comb across 2 or more frames, making it impossible to remove without making a terrible mess. As you said, your strips were placed between 2 drawn combs. That helps to keep them in alignment.

The thread where I said that was talking about starting out with a full box of strips. Although it can be done that way, you must keep a constant eye on them and manipulate frames and trim comb each time they get off course. I'm sorry if I stepped on toes, that was not my intention. I just didn't want a first timer to wind up with a box full of criss-crossed comb and no knowledge of what to do with it.

[Rod Weakley]

I think it's important to mention that there really is no reason to start off with a whole box of empty frames or starter strips. What GeeBeeNC did with the 2 sandwiched between drawn frames was perfect in my opinion and experience. MB says that it's just important to get the center of the broodnest down to smallcell size. So why bother trying to do a whole box at the same time anyway. A NOTE FOR NEWBEES!!! More than likely the first empty or even start strip frame you put in the hive will be drawn out as drone comb. HUGE. Don't panic, just move it over or up for honey storage and put another empty frame in it's place and you will get some regressed cells this time. There is the feeling that bees have a need (probably emotional, they are a bunch of women you know LOL) for drone comb. We don't normally give them much of a chance to draw DRONE so when you gave them that chance with the empty frame they SCRATCHED their itch. Leave it in the hive somewhere and they won't need to do that again.

[GeeBeeNC]

I'm sorry if I stepped on toes, that was not my intention.

I didn't feel stepped on at all. Incredulous is more accurate. Incredulous that if all the problems are out there for what I was doing that I wasn't experiencing them.

I will have to say that the thought of starting a new hive with just starter strips is terrifying. But my intent is to grow my apiary slowly, using the resources that I already have to expand with.

[ May 07, 2006, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: GeeBeeNC ]

[drobbins]

GeeBee

last year I converted my one hive from Pierco to natural comb using starter strips
what I did was to go to the hive with a box with ten frames setup with the strips
take a frame of drawn comb out of the existing hive
replace it with a frame with a starter strip
now put that drawn comb in the center of the new box, flanked by the nine remaining frames with strips and add the box on top
this not only gives them a guide to go by but also entices them up into the new box to get working
I did this in a box I had built a window into

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/window/window.html

this was really neat, you could watch and see how they start drawing the frames adjacent to the drawn comb, then when they get that one close to done they move out to the next one
I don't think using a whole box of strips means they'll surely mess it up, it just inceases the chances
using the plan I described is simple and improves the odds for success

Dave

[Michael Bush]

>In the other tread Iddee made a comment that starter strips are not for newbees. I want to hear comments on why he thinks that way as well as what others think about the special considerations and skills required for using starter strips.


I've seen more messed up comb from collapsed wax foundation than from starter strips. I've put a package in four medium boxes of all starter strips and they built it all beautifully. Can the bees mess up starter strips? Sure. Can they mess up wax foundation? Sure. Can they mess up plastic? A forgone conlcusion. They almost always mess up plastic foundation, yet this is what everyone recommends for the newbee.


Will some drawn comb improve the odds of them staying on track in a box full of starter strips? Of course.

[Tia]

iddee, my toes are fine, thank you. I was just earnestly asking a question, because I truly had no idea there could be a problem. I've used starter strips and have gone foundationless, with and without alternate drawn comb and it's always worked out just as well as with a full sheet of foundation. Truth be told, I'm going to foundationless/starter strips because I'm lazy/cheap. When I need to replace a frame of comb--whatever the reason--it's easier & quicker to just throw a foundationless frame or one with starter strip in there. I can't seem to keep the foundation straight in frames I make up as spares and keep in the shed. By the time I get to using them, they've buckled and whathaveyou. But strips keep fine, and foundationless. . .well, what could happen in storage?

[wayacoyote]

I've decided that leveling the hive, at least side-to-side, is a good idea to follow in addition to having at least one frame of drawn comb. It has helped to keep the comb running down the center of the end bars.

Michael is right about the foundation. I just figured out how to "correct" the problem of wavy foundation. I cut it free from the ends and bottom and repositioned using the push-in pins. I even pushed some pins up through the split in the bottom bar. I wish I had thought of this years ago.

Waya

[Gene Weitzel]

Hi all

I am a stark newbie, this is my first year. I hived six packages with all starter strips. I followed MB's advice and trimmed the top bars so that 11 frames fit in a standard deep. In the center I put one foundationless frame (see MB's website) and five 1" SC starter strip frames on each side following housel positioning. I hung the queen cage on the center frame when I hived the package. All six hives started with primary comb on the center frame. Some expanded to one side or the other and others expanded in both directions. They have all drawn the comb centered on each frame. A couple of the hives kind of ballooned the comb out a little wider than it should have been on one edge of the frame where I did not have the frames pushed quite together all the way, but none have drawn any comb across two frames. In one of my Italian hives I noticed that they had drawn about a half of frame of drone comb below the starter strip on one frame, but I think this is because when I hived the packages I failed to put in a drone escape and most of the drones ended up dead on the SBB (all hives are top entrance hives, with an excluder between the entrance and the brood box). They drew this comb within a week after I drilled a drone escape in the bottom, so I think they are just making up for the lost drones.

I may be all wet but I think the key is trimming the top bars so that the spacing is more natural and then following the housel positioning rules with the foundation strips.

[Gene Weitzel]

I forgot to mention you actually have to reduce the width of the side bars as well, as this is actully what establishes the frame spacing.

[Michael Bush]

I have had better luck with correct spacing (1 1/4") but it works ok on standard spacing (1 3/8") most of the time.