Need help with combine

[Gene Weitzel]

Copied this over from my "Hive crashing" thread, was afraid it was not getting much attention and I could really use some comments.

Went out to do the combine last night and the small "nuc" was gone. No queen and only a few workers left in the box and they looked like "robbers" from the neighboring hives cleaning out what little remained of the stores. Probably just as well, after consulting my "Principles of Beekeeping" book, it was not too good of an idea to combine two weak hives anyway. Now what to do with my other weak hive. Here are my resources:

Hive #1 - Russian package installed on 4/15. These girls are going great guns and are just about ready for their second deep. They have lots of open and capped brood on 9 frames.

Hive #2 - Russian package installed on 4/15. These are a litte behind #1 but are pretty strong. They struggled a litte early on with SHB but seem to be back on track. They have a good amount of open and capped brood on 7 frames.

Hive #3 - Italian package installed on 4/8. This package lost its queen in the first 2 weeks (found her dead on the SBB). I gave them a small frame of open and capped brood from Hive #4 when I re-queened it on 4/21 (released the queen on 4/24). They seem to be recovering but they are a good week or more behind #2. At last inspection on 5/8 they had open and capped brood on about 5 frames.

Hive #4 - Italian package installed on 4/8. This is the one that lost its workers. At 2-3 weeks it was the strongest hive and seemed to be going great. It is now a dead-out.

Hive #5 - Buckfast package installed on 4/8. This is now the strongest of the hives installed on 4/8. They are about on par with hive #1, but they have taken an extra week to get there. They have comb drawn on all but 2 of 11 frames, with open and capped brood on 7-8 frames. They have at least 4-5 frames drawn all the way to the bottom bar.

Hive #6 - Buckfast package installed on 4/8. This is the problem hive. At 2 weeks they had a pretty good amount of open and capped brood. At 3 weeks I could find almost no open brood and a very small amount of capped brood. At 4 weeks I found only 3 or 4 cells of capped brood and one capped queen cell. I spotted the marked queen so she is still in the hive. They have comb drawn on about 7 frames.

I have decided the best course of action is to combine hive #6 with hive #5, but I would like some advice on the best approach since I would really hate to lose the queen in hive #5.

Should I cut the queen cell out now and let them wait until Saturday with their sorry queen and then do the combine during my weekly inspection?

Should I do the combine tonight and then wait a little longer before inspecting the combined hive?

Since this is the first time for me to try something like this, I could really use some input/encouragement.

[Joel]

Gene, my perspective may be different due to being a commericial operation. Our focus is on production and to some degree, due to numbers, I don't have the intimate connection with each hive I did as a hobbyist. Keep that in mind.

I would not combine any hives with difficulties this early in the season nor would I steal brood from a strong hive and weaken it to help a weak hive. I would continue to work on each hive individually by requeening and feeding to support what is there. As the weather improves, honey flows get stronger and queens get accepted and weak hives have a way of either coming back or not. Those that don't we leave until there own devices, we get better results that way. Sometime toward the end of May we do equalization in our yards. This is done by switching locations on strong hives and weak hives. The returning field workers will be accepted at both locations due to incoming nectar and the weak hive will be bolstered quickly. The strong hive will not loose much and in fact it may help stablize and steer a strong hive away from swarming. Strong hives usually have an abundant supply of pollen and honey stores and 1000-1500 eggs hatching out a day. We want our hives as equal as possible going into the main honey flow.

Weak hives happen for many reasons including lost queens, disease, parasites, lack of feed or a combination of those. Sometimes it's the genetics of a particular queen. You still have time to support your weak hives and then equalize. We consider this one of the most important manipulations for our season.

Good luck, let us know how you do.

[Gene Weitzel]

Joel

I certianly understand your perspective. There are a couple things I think I should point out.

1. It is not nearly as early in our season (Texas Gulf Coast) as it is in yours and our flow is not very good this year because of lack of early rain.

2. This is a new package, they have been hived for 4-1/2 weeks. In that time there has been very little new brood emerge, so they are headed for a dramatic drop in worker force in the next 2-3 weeks and considering the problems we have with SHB here, I don't give them much chance of survival if I were to re-queen them today (which can't happen as I could not get my hands on a new queen for 1-2 days at the soonest).

I could let them just dwindle down, but I hate to waste the bees if they could help the other hive along. There is no evidence of disease and they have been doing a good job of collecting stores, their queen just seems to have nearly stopped laying. I have a feeder in place, but they are not using it much.

[Michael Bush]

>Probably just as well, after consulting my "Principles of Beekeeping" book, it was not too good of an idea to combine two weak hives anyway.

There are many varied opinions on this. I have no problem with combining two weak hives. I almost prefer it to combining a weak with a strong. You might pass the problem along to the strong hive.

>I have decided the best course of action is to combine hive #6 with hive #5, but I would like some advice on the best approach since I would really hate to lose the queen in hive #5.

How about letting #6 raise their queen and pull themselves out of this slump? The new queen may very well invigorate them and if the queen isn't the problem, you won't pass the current problem on to the strong hive.

>Should I cut the queen cell out now and let them wait until Saturday with their sorry queen and then do the combine during my weekly inspection?

If you really want to combine, I'd cut the queen cells out of the weak hive and remove the queen, the day before the combine. Then put a sheet of newpaper on the strong hive and put the weak on top of that. One small slit will be sufficient, but you could put two spaced out if you want to speed things along.

>Should I do the combine tonight and then wait a little longer before inspecting the combined hive?

Once you do the combine, I'd leave them alone for a while and let them settle in.

[Gene Weitzel]

Michael

I would really prefer to let them raise there own queen if there's a chance it will work.

Do you think that there would be enough workers left to support the hive long enough to get the new queen laying?

Would I need to remove some of the comb as they contract to help protect against SHB re-infestation?

I could just switch positions with the stronger hive and let that "shore them up a bit" as Joel suggested. They are on the same stand and it would only require move both hives about 4 feet to switch places.

Thanks ahead of time for your input.

[Michael Bush]

>I would really prefer to let them raise there own queen if there's a chance it will work.

Then let them.

>Do you think that there would be enough workers left to support the hive long enough to get the new queen laying?

It's more likely if you limit the size of the hive to a minmum. Reduce them down to the minimum box to fit the bees in.

>Would I need to remove some of the comb as they contract to help protect against SHB re-infestation?

Absolutely.

>I could just switch positions with the stronger hive and let that "shore them up a bit" as Joel suggested. They are on the same stand and it would only require move both hives about 4 feet to switch places.

But then you'll set back the strong one. If you want to you can do that.

[Gene Weitzel]

>Then let them.

I think I will. Just a few more questions.

1. By my math the queen cell should emerge on Sunday or Monday, possibly even Saturday (It was not there on 4/29, but was there and capped 8 days later on 5/7). The old queen is still in the hive (I spotted her) and currently cannot leave because there is a queen excluder between the brood box and the entrance, unless she finds the drone escape in the bottom. Should I remove the queen excluder, and if so when?

2. When should I inspect the hive again to see if the new queen has emerged, the last inspection was on 5/7? If I inspect on Saturday as planned and she has still not emerged, should I check daily until I know?

3. Is there a chance that they will abscond when the new queen emerges? If so, what can I do to minimize it?

4. Should I try to catch the marked queen prior to emergance of the new queen or just leave her in there? Will the bees protect the queen cell from her?

>But then you'll set back the strong one. If you want to you can do that.

Good point, maybe I'll just leave them where they are.

[Michael Bush]

>The old queen is still in the hive (I spotted her) and currently cannot leave because there is a queen excluder between the brood box and the entrance, unless she finds the drone escape in the bottom.

If she wants to leave she wil lfind the drone escape.

> Should I remove the queen excluder, and if so when?

As long as the drones can get out, I guess it's not a big deal. Are you trying to prevent a swarm?

>2. When should I inspect the hive again to see if the new queen has emerged, the last inspection was on 5/7?

You said it was just capped on 5/7? Then it will be about May 29th before you see eggs.

> If I inspect on Saturday as planned and she has still not emerged, should I check daily until I know?

I wouldn't expect her to emerge until Monday the 15th. I wouldn't expect eggs until about Tuesday the 29th and sometimes a queen is a day or two late emerging if the weather is cool.

>3. Is there a chance that they will abscond when the new queen emerges?

Why? Ocassionly bees abscond, but they have no reason to. A failing queen is not a motive for absconding. Being messed with too much, bad smell, too much heat etc, are reasons to abscond.

> If so, what can I do to minimize it?

Leave them alone. smile.gif

>4. Should I try to catch the marked queen prior to emergance of the new queen or just leave her in there?

I would leave her. The bees will sort it out.

> Will the bees protect the queen cell from her?

They don't need to. The old queen has no interest in a queen cell. She is not a virgin queen.

[Gene Weitzel]

Should I remove the queen excluder, and if so when?

>As long as the drones can get out, I guess it's not a big deal. Are you trying to prevent a swarm?

I was mostly concerned that the new queen might have trouble getting back though the excluder after mating. The folks I bought the packages from suggested putting the excluder there after hiving the package, I have left it in place since they seemed to be doing fine with it there. It would not be much disturbance to remove it if you think it could become a problem for the new queen.

[Michael Bush]

I would remove the excluder.

[Gene Weitzel]

Michael

I took a quick peek up through the bottom this morning. The queen cell had its cap hanging like the lid of freshly opened tin can. It still looked like it was full of royal jelly though. I also saw about 5 other cups on the bottom of some of the comb. What does all this mean?

Also the bee population looked like it was down about 30% from my last invasive inspection (5 days ago). There were still a lot of bees in the center of the nest, but they were pretty sparse on the outer edge combs.

[Michael Bush]

>I took a quick peek up through the bottom this morning. The queen cell had its cap hanging like the lid of freshly opened tin can. It still looked like it was full of royal jelly though. I also saw about 5 other cups on the bottom of some of the comb. What does all this mean?

Queen cells on the bottom of frames are almost always swarm cells. Supercedure cells are almost always up in the middle of the frame.

I got the imression they were failing. This sounds like swarming. Failing hives don't swarm.

>Also the bee population looked like it was down about 30% from my last invasive inspection (5 days ago). There were still a lot of bees in the center of the nest, but they were pretty sparse on the outer edge combs.

Which sounds even more like swarming.

[Gene Weitzel]

>Queen cells on the bottom of frames are almost always swarm cells. Supercedure cells are almost always up in the middle of the frame.

These cells are not on the bottom of the frame, the frames are only about 50% drawn (they started with starter strips), the cells are on the bottom of the drawn comb. Don't know if that makes a difference.

>I got the imression they were failing. This sounds like swarming. Failing hives don't swarm.

From the beginning the queen's laying pattern has been more sparse than any of the other packages. At the last two weekly inspections it has been almost non-existant. There have also been more dead bees on the bottom board than the other hives (although it did not seem like an alarming number of dead bees, but definately more than the other hives) at each weekly inspection. My feeling all along has been that they were struggling. This package is almost 5 weeks old, so with very little new brood emerging, wouldn't one expect a pretty big drop in bee population by now?

>Which sounds even more like swarming.

I thought swarming occurred when they built up quickly and were out of room. This hive at the best has occupied no more than 50% of the space in a single deep. They now occupy about 30%. All of the other packages occupy more of the bood box, and none of them have any queen cups anywhere. I am sure stranger things have happend in bee keeping so I am not ruling out swarming, guess I am just wanting to know if there is a situation where supercedure could resemble swarming.

In looking back, I probably should have re-queened them after the two week inspection. I knew then that they were not doing as well as the other hives. Lack of experience I'm sure.

[Michael Bush]

>These cells are not on the bottom of the frame, the frames are only about 50% drawn (they started with starter strips), the cells are on the bottom of the drawn comb. Don't know if that makes a difference.

Any queen cell at the bottom of the comb I would consider a swarm cell, unless there was only one and there were several others up in the middle. Then I might consider it an emergency cell.

>My feeling all along has been that they were struggling. This package is almost 5 weeks old, so with very little new brood emerging, wouldn't one expect a pretty big drop in bee population by now?

A 5 week old package? I wouldn't expect them to swarm unless you fed them so much and they stored so much that they clogged up the brood nest and the queen couldn't find anywhere to lay.

>I thought swarming occurred when they built up quickly and were out of room. This hive at the best has occupied no more than 50% of the space in a single deep. They now occupy about 30%.

Actually they swarm when they percieve they have the resources and it's the right time or year. OR when they run out of room and it's the wrong time of year. In the spring it's more about room in the brood nest than room in the hive.

> All of the other packages occupy more of the bood box, and none of them have any queen cups anywhere. I am sure stranger things have happend in bee keeping so I am not ruling out swarming, guess I am just wanting to know if there is a situation where supercedure could resemble swarming.

Since it's a package it makes swarming seem less likely, but the cell on the bottom and the sudden decrease in bees makes me suspicious.

>In looking back, I probably should have re-queened them after the two week inspection. I knew then that they were not doing as well as the other hives. Lack of experience I'm sure.

Maybe. Or maybe if you quit feeding them they would open up the brood nest and the queen would have somewhere to lay.

[Gene Weitzel]

>Maybe. Or maybe if you quit feeding them they would open up the brood nest and the queen would have somewhere to lay.

The feeder is still in place, but its also still pretty much full. They don't seem to be using it much, and have not for the last two weeks (all the other hives are behaving the same way regarding the feeders). When I inspected this hive last (5/7) there were a lot of empty cells in the center of the brood nest so there should be plenty of room for the queen to lay. They had plenty of honey and pollen as well, but it was all stored in only about an inch or so of comb at the top and down the sides a little on each frame. There also are at least 3 freshly drawn smaller empty combs at the outer edge of the brood nest.

By my description of the queen cell (cap hanging but still looked full of royal jelly) does it look like the new queen has emergerd? I have no idea what a queen cell that is freshly emerged should look like.

[Michael Bush]

>The feeder is still in place, but its also still pretty much full. They don't seem to be using it much, and have not for the last two weeks (all the other hives are behaving the same way regarding the feeders).

But are the combs all full of nectar?

> When I inspected this hive last (5/7) there were a lot of empty cells in the center of the brood nest so there should be plenty of room for the queen to lay.

That's the important thing.

>By my description of the queen cell (cap hanging but still looked full of royal jelly) does it look like the new queen has emergerd? I have no idea what a queen cell that is freshly emerged should look like.

An uncapped queen cell is open, white, waxy and full of royal jelly. Maybe you can't see the larvae will, but the royal jelly is white and fresh looking, like heavy cream and very opaque.

An emerged queen cell is brown, papery, and has the end either opened (like a tin can lid) or sometimes the flap springs closed. If you look inside there is royal jelly but it's more jelly looking and more translucent and usually a bit more brownish and less white. NOT like fresh heavy cream.

[Gene Weitzel]

>An emerged queen cell is brown, papery, and has the end either opened (like a tin can lid) or sometimes the flap springs closed. If you look inside there is royal jelly but it's more jelly looking and more translucent and usually a bit more brownish and less white. NOT like fresh heavy cream.

That pretty much describes the look of this queen cell (the end is opened like a tin can lid, jelly is translucent, definately NOT like fresh heavy cream). So I guess this means the queen has emerged (probably yesterday when I observed the cap dangling from the queen cell, or possibly the day before). I obviously missed this queen cell at my last inspection (5/7).

They may have swarmed (to account for the drop in population) and I missed it. However, there are still more than half the bees left in the hive,

Should I inspect them as planned tomorrow and try to find a queen?

Should I remove some of the sparsely guarded comb and put in a division board?

[Joel]

Sorry Gene, I saw the Cleveland and missed the Texas! I would defer to Michaels advice in light of the region. We have the same problem in SC. Our main honey flow is in March/April and was poor this year. It certainly impacts the whole season.

[ May 12, 2006, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]