4.9mm comb and its relation to beespace

[Scot Mc Pherson]

I have a question, and although its targetted at the lusbys, anyone who can answer authoritatively I would welcome a reply from.

I am going to be starting 3 kenya top bar hives, and plan to try to start/regress bees to/with 4.9mm comb, and then allow them to figure out the best cell sizes for themselves after the inital introduction.

My question is how does this effect beespace. The idea center to center comb spacing is 35mm using standard methods and spacings. If the bees are reduced to 4.9mm cell size, does this not also reduce their beespace?

In the top bar hive information I have found on ibiblio, there is some documentation about "africanized" bees having center to center spacing of 32mm. Is this accurate as in relation to biological beekeeping? If this "more accurate" space is not provided, do you find more cross comb?

Any and all information is GREATLY appreciated. I am hoping to be able to procure biologically sized bees. But swarms here are very rare, I have lived here in Sarasota, FL for 8 years and have seen only one swarm, and one natural (not in a man-made hive) hive (it was in the corner of a roof overhang going into the attic crawl-space). So as you can see I can't rely on swarms to populate my hives.

Is there anyone who splits biological hives and supplies them? I am not a commercial beekeeper, but a sedentary beekeeper who is interested in beekeeping for beekeeping. Honey and other byproducts is entirely a beneficial side effect.

I have not kept bees in quite a few years, and long to return to keeping them along side my other hobbies I have rekindled like Wine Making, Herb Gardening, and Fish Husbandry.

If I am successful, i very much am keen on the idea of starting a local special interest group in developing biological beekeeping in top bar hives as a very viable alternative in my (hopefully) greater region. Possibly becoming the source of healthy bees.

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Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me

[Michael Bush]

I'm not up on the measurements in metric, but you can space "normal" oversized bees anywhere from 1 3/8" to 1 9/16" and they will build them in line, they will just fill the honey out more on the wider spacing.

You can put 4.9mm bees on anywhere from 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" spacing and they will do just fine. This is 11 frames in a 10 frame box. If you just shave 1/16" off each side of the end pieces either with a plane or with a saw you will get this. For top bars, if you rip your top bars 1 1/4" you will also get this. But the 4.9mm bees will also do fine on anything up to 1 1/2" wide.

I found a book that made a comment wondering how Huber, who was so meticulous in his measurments got off on the natural comb spacing by 1/8" because Huber said it was 1 1/4" and we all know that it is 1 3/8". Obviously the author was unaware of the artificial enlargement that has taken place since Huber took those measurments. If you look at plans for Hubers original hive they are spaced 1 1/4".

The more I have researched the concept the more I realize that the measurments given for "African" and "Africanized" bees are simply natrual sizes for European bees as well including numbers of days for emergence etc.

[Michael Bush]

If you look in the equpipment section there is an ongoing thread on Top Bar Hives. Many of us have done them with plain wax starter strips and let the bees build what they want. It has been an interesting experiment. I also have a Lanstroth hive with just blank stater strips in medium frames where the bees build what they want. Natural comb is a facinating thing to study. Not what I expected. The variations in size and orientation are striking.

If unaturally sized combs were the cause, then maybe natural sized combs are the solution.

You do need your bees already regressed when you put them 1 1/4" spacing. If you have a swarm from a hive it will be 5.4mm bees and they may not do so well on that spacing.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

So are there any suppliers of reduced size bees? Do the Lusbys provide naturally regressed bees yet? I know they were planning to.

Would the Lusbys be more interested in supplying bees to someone who wishes to propogate the practice of biological beekeeping within a region?

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Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me

[Michael Bush]

I am selling small cell bees this coming spring. I was going just sell nucs to be picked up here in Greenwood, NE (between Omaha and Lincoln) but if you were very interested, I could look into what it would take to ship them via UPS etc. I'd also have to figure out what FL requires for certification.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

Well that is very considerate of you. Thanx.

As far as certification, I am not sure what you mean. I do know that FL requires each hive to be registered with the state so the state knows about and can inspect each hive. Though I also know that our governer has decided that the state run program is going to be cut from the budget, so I can't honestly say what's required at present. Though I do not think that the shipment of bees is something that needs to be registered/certified. Though please feel free to research, you probably know better than I how to find out wha'ts required.

If there is anything I can do to help, or if you can help guide me in the right direction regarding bee shipment to the state of florida or anything else, please let me know.

All very kind of you, again thanx.

[Clayton]

Hi Scott,

This was discussed on bio bee list, organic list, and even norland list several years ago. Basically after looking up in old bee books and references the spacing for EHB's was on average 32mm for brood combs (same as AHB's)and was 35mm for the honey combs spacing. So there is a range of spacing. So any where from 31mm to 35mm will work fine. I wouldn't go less or greater than these.

Clay

[Scot Mc Pherson]

Clayton,
Thanx for the info. I believe that I have settled on just using 35mm ( == 1 3/8 in ), this coupled with the fact that the dimensions and volumetrics I have selected for my hive dictate 35 top bars for the hive. If at any time I feel the need to plane a mm, I will have planed exactly enough room for another topbar. If I plane another mm, the fit won't be as exactingly tight, but yet another top bar will fit. Any yet again for a 3rd mm if I wanted. Giving me 38 top bars if I planed down to 32 mm.

I realize the bees can do different things in different parts of the hive, though I want the ability or at least the quasi-ability to move the bars around as I desire. If I see a nice piece of pristine and perfect comb being drawn I might like to move it to the brood chamber.

Just FYI, the internal dimensions I have selected for my Kenyan style TBH, Exact dimensions are to metric not to english. Top Width 16" (40 cm), Bottom Width 8" (20cm), Height 12"(30cm), Length 48 1/4"(122.5cm). This gives an slope of roughly 26.3 deg. from the vertical. And the total volume of the hive is roughly 147 liters. About 3 1/2 deep supers worth of volume.

I selected these dimensions because of some studying I have been trying to do. Years ago I read something about the size of hives being different in different locales. I found an article on ibiblio.com called top_bar_hive_lore.txt, and this fellow described in very general terms how natural / prefered hive volume differed depending on region based on mostly on harshness of the region's winter (or lack of one). Through conjecture, I determined that something about what I came up with liters would be suitable for my region.

I selected 16" for the top bar (internal dimension), to help facilitate straighter comb (the bees don't have to draw it as far), and a lighter comb. The sole reason (well one of the sole reasons), for selecting sloped side was to facilitate more natural shaped comb. The trapazoidal shape of the comb will put less stress on the supporting comb above (less comb on the bottom). The last reason was because I thought it looks more interesting. I don't think that the bees are more relucant to attach comb to ANY surface really, so that wasn't really part of the consideration.


Any comments/suggestions?

[Michael Bush]

I think those dimension should work as nice as any. I went with a Langstroth deep size and no slope and regretted it. Your's is deeper but not as wide and sloped. Those corners on a square piece of comb add a lot of stress.

I would make the bars so there is a little space at the back and they are not tight. Like 1/2" or so. That, or use a follower at the back and never put all the bars in. If they are tight to begin with they only get tighter. Propolis pushes them apart. The occasional undecided bee pushes them apart. And you need room to get the first one out.

[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited July 30, 2003).]

[Scot Mc Pherson]

Perhaps I should reduce my height to 10" instead ?

I need to figure the volume for that.

ok The volume without changing any other dimensions is 122.5 liters, which is roughly the volume of 3 deep supers. Each deep being roughly 40 liters.

For the record, I am a native english measurement system user, but I find the merits of using metric are a great deal easier to figure, and cross figure things like linear measurements and converting to volume and so forth.

I think I should probably move this discussion of of this list, its not really beekeeping 101 material is it?

[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited July 30, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

There is a thread on TBHs in the Equipment section if you like.

I made some TBH's back in the 70's and they were standard deep depth (9 5/8") and stadard width (19" bars, 19 7/8" outside at the top) and sloped about 22.5 degrees. They worked pretty well. Combs are always fragile in a top bar hive.

I think the bees make it in a arch shape for a reason and that is strength. They eventually fill out the corners because they don't want to waste space.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

As I have said, that's one of the reasons why I selected the Kenyan shape. I don't think it reduces wax attachment for any other reason that comb built in a kenyan is more mechanically sound, the rectangluar comb of a tanzanian style like you describe in the TBH thread (which is a 2 year thread? My goodness), I think more attachments are made to support he weight, and the necessary attachment removal stressed the wax above.

Ok I am killing this thread here. Will continue on the TBH thread in equipment. I knew about the thread but want to read the thread before I started commenting on it. And it took me 2 days to get through it. (I can't just sit here and read all day)