Hive bodies Question

[Jesus_the_only_way]

Can I run all shallows on my hive including for the bodies. If so how many shallows should make up the body? I am asking cause i have a surplus of them.
Thanks

[BerkeyDavid]

Ask Jesus

[Jesus_the_only_way]

Was that really necessary?

[Andrew Dewey]

You can keep bees in anything that will hold removable frames, but just because you can doesn't mean you should. The big problem I see with using shallows as brood chambers is that you are reducing the laying area for the queen pretty substantialy. Add to that the extra cross over area between frame tops/bottoms in the boxes and I think it would be hard to get a robust colony going.

I know shallows are not that much smaller than mediums, but I think they are enough smaller to make a difference.

To answer your question about the number of boxes I'd want to do the math to calculate the comb surface area in a shallow and a deep - then use enough shallows to equal/exceed two deeps.

[George Fergusson]

Good answer Andrew though for all I know the extra cross over area could be a good thing for wintering bees, facilitating their movement laterally across the box- less distance to travel to get to adjacent frames. I've often wondered if this was another benefit to using all mediums.

That said, I suspect you're more right than wrong. With a stack of shallows you are adding a lot of wood to the brood nest area. Would this impact the queen's egg laying and the bees ability to maintain a brood nest? I don't know. You could make it up with additional comb (more boxes) but would that work?

My initial reaction was "man that would be a lotta frames to inspect", easy on the back, but time consuming. Without getting out a calculator, I think a 2 deep hive could be approximated with 4 shallows. That would mean manipulating 40 frames for a full inspection as opposed to 20 for 2 deeps and 30 for 3 mediums. IMHO, a lot of extra work.

Anyways, I know they'll happily raise brood in shallows. The 20 migratory hives I got last summer were comprised of a deep and a shallow. I added a second deep and over the summer pulled the shallows off- the bees did NOT want to abandon them. I plan to use the good comb for mating nucs this year and the rest for honey supers. Perhaps I'll throw a swarm in a stack of them and see what happens.

[Jesus_the_only_way]

Thanks for the help guys.
I guess it would take a lot longer to keep up with it. I guess I'll go with 2 deeps or maybe one deep and a shallow.
Tommy

[FordGuy]

I think two shallows are the same size as one deep, but since the frames are broken in the center you lose some comb space (that what you call it? you get the idea.)

Also, some people have expressed concerns about the bees getting stranded between frames in the winter, something about not being able to cross/make a decision to cross, etc. I think with 4 shallows the bees would need to make a decision to cross twice as much as with two deeps.

Caveat - I am still learning, so I can't speak from experience. I just saw the response from David and wanted to make sure you got some kind of a decent reply. Good luck.

[loryb1]

I have been advised myself as a new beekeeper to try to house hives on two deeps but it has not worked for me, the hives seem to want to swarm way before they get close to drawing out that second hive body. This year I am using one deep and one medium as a brood chamber with mediums for supers, but I still have swarms. I still don't have this beekeeping thing figured out yet. I guess so much depends on location, weather and what works, experiment with your equipment in your area, if it works for you, go with it no matter whatever other people say you "should" do. God bless, sincerely, Lory

[MichaelW]

"I" think, three shallows should be enough space for our area, you can always feed them late in winter if it turns out it isn't. I would do it in a pinch, but a deep and a shallow would be better I think.

I think some of the advantages people see here using a double deep or other large broodnest configurations has more to do with early spring buildup than overwintering. To get around that, just add supers with empty comb early in the season to allow for broodnest expansion.

[Michael Bush]

I used to run deeps and shallows. Now I run all mediums. I cut down all the deeps. In fact, now I've cut all those down to eight frame mediums. It works very well for me.

The big issue is what do you want to lift? A deep when it's full of honey weighs 90 pounds. A medium full of honey weighs 60 pounds. An eight frame medium full of honey weighs 45 pounds. Lifting ONE full deep leaves me hurting for a week. Lifting full mediums all day leave me hurting for a couple of days. Lifting eight frame mediums all day leaves my back little stiff the next morning.

The other issue is interchangability. The frame is the basic element of a modern bee hive. Even if you have various sized boxes (as far as the number of frames they hold) if the frames are all the same depth you can put them in any of your boxes.

Having a uniform frame size has simplified my life. If all your frames are the same size you have a lot of advantages.

You can put anything currently in the hive anywhere else it's needed.

For instance:

1) You can put brood up a box to "bait" the bees up. This is useful without an excluder (I don't use excluders) but it's especially useful if you really want to use an excluder. A couple of frames of brood above the excluder (leaving the queen and the rest of the brood below) really motivates the bees to cross the excluder and start working the next box above it.

2) You can put honey combs in for food wherever you need it. I like this for making sure nucs don't starve without the robbing that feeding often starts, or bulking up the stores of a light hive in the fall.

3) You can unclog a brood nest by moving pollen or honey up a box or even a few frames of brood up a box to make room in the brood nest to prevent swarming. If you don't have all the same size, where will you put these frames?

4) You can run an unlimited brood nest with no excluder and if there is brood anywhere you can move it anywhere else. You're not stuck with a bunch of brood in a medium or a shallow that you can't move down to your deep brood chamber. The advantage of the unlimited brood nest is the queen isn't limited to one or two brood boxes, but can be laying in three or four. Probably not four deeps, but probably in four mediums.

I'm not sure about shallows. According to Walt Wright the queen will readily move from a deep box into a medium but not so readily move from a deep to a shallow. But it's also possible that with no other choice (no deep to stay in) she'll readily move up through the shallows.

As far as how many shallows, that depends on the cluster size. Back when I had Italians or Buckfasts, I needed two deeps (or three mediums) almost all the time. Now with the ferals (or even the carnis) I need less at least sometimes. I have some colonies in four eight frame mediums right now and some in three and some in two depending on the size of the cluster going into winter.

[Jesus_the_only_way]

Thanks again for all your help.
You guys sure are nice to us newbees.
Tommy

[FordGuy]

Mr. Bush, I wish you'd write a comprehensive article on the management unlimited brood nest. I did a search which revealed a lot of info, but it would be nice a complete treatise on the matter. Presumably it would apply to Illinois or deeps. Or shallows I reckon.

[wayacoyote]

Tommy,
after hearing a few years ago that Michael uses all mediums, and then going out to my hive to move a deep filled with honey, I'm very eager to cut my deeps down. Ya' gotta save that back! No one else will do it for you. But I also know that there are others with weaker backs than mine who run all deeps. But they move one frame at a time. I don't have the patience for that when i want to see my broodnest under a couple of deeps.

In eastern TN, depending on your elevation and sun exposure, I can't imagine the wood of the frames really setting you that far back in the queen's ability to lay and the hive's ability to survive the winter. But I don't know. I'll admit, I do like the idea of easy communication from one side of a frame to the other that mediums offer over deeps.

But my reasoning for going with all deeps in the beginning had to do with economics. I was making my own hive bodies. I could get the same volume of hive cheaper with deeps than I could making mediums (frames and foundations included). However, now I realize that protecting my health and back are my greatest investments.
Waya

[Michael Bush]

>Mr. Bush, I wish you'd write a comprehensive article on the management unlimited brood nest. I did a search which revealed a lot of info, but it would be nice a complete treatise on the matter.

I suppose I should.

>Presumably it would apply to Illinois or deeps. Or shallows I reckon.

Yes.