feeding

[c'estlabee]

Help! This is my first year at beekeeping.
I thought my bees were busy filling their boxes. I took my honey off at the begining of Sept. and left one full medium super (8 frame) and gave them one medium back after taking the honey. Today I opened them up and discovered that top box is still mostly empty! I'm afraid they'll starve now over the winter. Should I feed? For how long? How much? Will they turn that sugar water into honey? Do I have to feed all winter now, and how do you do that? I wanted to insulate their hive and leave them closed up all winter. It gets mighty cold here in Toledo!
Thanks for any advice!

[BILLY BOB]

I'm not sure how much honey you will need in your area, it should be about 60lbs or one full super. Someone from your area should post what the standard is for you. If no one from Toledo is a member here, try asking a local beekeeper. Do you know of any bee labs at the local collages? They can help you also.

Does the bottom super still have honey in it, and have they put any more honey in it? What about the brood box? The queen should have started to back off from laying, and they should be storing some honey there. You said the top super is still mostly empty, so there is honey stores in it?

If you find that you need to feed. The best thing to use is a top hive feeder like the one in the "plans...build it" section of beesource. With a top hive feeder you can feed well into the winter. You can also put a few quart jars of sugar syrup on the top bars. Using a empty hive body to cover it. When I start feeding I'll feed until I think they have enough stores for winter. Remember it will take a few days for the bees to remove the water from the syrup, and the stores will look as if it shrinks. Sugar syrup is a good feed, and they will store it in the comb like honey. If you have any honey that you can feed back it would be better. You can aggressively feed syrup and have stores for winter in a few weeks, but it can take longer. It depends how fast or slow they take the feed, and how cold it gets. The colder it gets the less activity they will have. A entrance feeder will do you little good in the cold weather. The bees will not leave the cluster to go to it.

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BB

The first step in house breaking a dog, is letting the dog in the house.

[MountainCamp]

If you need to feed to get your hives through this winter, there are a number of things that you can do to help your hives.
Some my disagree but, I have done this in the past and it has worked for me.
Add an empety box on top of the hive. Use mason jars or old sauce jars with holes punched in the tops and feed a heavy syrup, as thick as you can make it.
Wrap the hive with black felt paper and make sure it gets good sun. The hive will gain warmth from the sun and allow the bees to brake cluster and feed on more days.
Make sure that you allow extra ventilation in the top box for water vapor to escape.
I have left syrup on all winter with this setup. We don't get as cold here as some, but colder than most. I am in the Northern Catskill Mountains of New York.
Good luck.

[mnist]

I just switched from the top jar feeding method (sheesh I was refilling those jars practically every day! those little bugs were sucking down a quart a day)

Instead I switched to top feeders from Dadant. According to Dadant, the feeder sits on top of the frames, the inner cover on top of the feeder then the outer cover on top of that.

Is that the right way to do it? Now I'm wondering if they'll have enough ventilation with the feeder sitting directly on top of the frames like that.

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First Year Beekeeping Journal: http://www.blackcatnetworkhelp.net/beeblog.aspx

[MountainCamp]

If you use only (1) or (2) jars on the hole of the inner cover they can suck them dry quickly. I place 6 or so jars directly on the top bar with the empety box.

If you have a top entrance or some other form of ventilation, the top box feeder should not cause a problem.
My only concern with top feeder boxes is that the bees must move up into them and on days that are marginal temperature wise they will not get to use the feeder.

Using jars directly on the top bars they do not have to move above the frames. If the hive is wrapped with felt paper I have found that on sunny days, especially with snow on the ground, the hive heats up and the cluster loosens enough for the bees to use the jar feeders.

[This message has been edited by MountainCamp (edited October 25, 2003).]

[c'estlabee]

Thanks for the advice! I put a plastic quart jar full of sugar water with holes punched in it in an empty box and put that on top the frames. Can I open my hive in the cold weather to refill that? I kinda hate to open up the hive and let all their heat out.
I also noticed a hornet coming out of my hive! do you suppose my bees got robbed? Will hornets do that? I really thought I'd left them enough honey but maybe they're weakening and other critters are moving in. I haven't been able to open my hive the last couple days because its been pouring rain here.

[MountainCamp]

"Can I open my hive in the cold weather to refill that? I kinda hate to open up the hive and let all their heat out."

The cluster does not heat the hive, only the cluster itself. The bees on the outer surface of the cluster form an insulating layer.
I would not open the hive up for hours on end, but openning the top to check the syrup level and refill is not a problem, especially if they need it. I have done this in the dead of winter.

"I also noticed a hornet coming out of my hive! do you suppose my bees got robbed? Will hornets do that?"

Hornets and Wasps will raid hives looking for honey that they can steal.

[BeeCultivador]

An interesting thread...

Couple of questions

How do you keep the sugar syrup from freezing in the winter time? I would think that anything in the hive but outside of the cluster would be at approximately the same temperature as outside. With long, cold nights it would seem that the syrup would freeze and not get enough warmth the next day to unfreeze the solution.

If the syrup is cold, but not frozen - will the bees still consume it?

If you need 'x' pounds of honey in each hive to survive, how do you calculate how much you need to feed to bring the hive to this level? Is there some conversion factor between 2:1 sugar syrup and a honey equivalent?

Finally, I think that I read somewhere that you can make a fondant from sugar that was placed on the top bars of the hive as supplemental feed. The bees were supposed to be able to feed on the fondant all winter - even in freezing temperatures. Has anyone actually tried this?

[This message has been edited by BeeCultivador (edited October 28, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

>How do you keep the sugar syrup from freezing in the winter time?
The bees will generate enough heat that it won't freeze if it's on the top bars with a box around it. I don't know how well that works in a really cold climate, though.

>If the syrup is cold, but not frozen - will the bees still consume it?
Unless the syrup is at least 50 degrees or so they will not.

>If you need 'x' pounds of honey in each hive to survive, how do you calculate how much you need to feed to bring the hive to this level? Is there some conversion factor between 2:1 sugar syrup and a honey equivalent?

Someone posted a link to a conversion and also to a site with conversions. But roughly I think 8 pounds of 2:1 came to about 6 pounds of honey. I don't know how accurate that is.


>Finally, I think that I read somewhere that you can make a fondant from sugar that was placed on the top bars of the hive as supplemental feed. The bees were supposed to be able to feed on the fondant all winter - even in freezing temperatures. Has anyone actually tried this?

A lot of people around here use it and swear by it. I never tried it. Most of them have a board that makes a lid with the lid full of candy. Someone says they make a "sugar cake" that they put on the top bars.




[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited October 28, 2003).]

[MountainCamp]

>How do you keep the sugar syrup from freezing in the winter time?
-The bees will generate enough heat that it won't freeze if it's on the top bars with a box around it.

The high sugar content drops the freezing point of the syrup.

-I don't know how well that works in a really cold climate, though.

Most places during winter get a break in the cold temps(mid 20's and up), even for a day, and with a black wrap on the hive, the bees can brake cluster and feed. Or if they have move up in the hive and are at the top from eating all of their stores they are at the jars.

Any type of winter feeding system requires that the bees be able to get to the feed. Actually any winter feeding on stores requires that the bees be able to brake cluster and move around.

>If the syrup is cold, but not frozen - will the bees still consume it?
Unless the syrup is at least 50 degrees or so they will not.

With a wrap, sun, and or the cluster up in the hive due to low store the syrup is warm enough for them to feed.

>If you need 'x' pounds of honey in each hive to survive, how do you calculate how much you need to feed to bring the hive to this level? Is there some conversion factor between 2:1 sugar syrup and a honey equivalent?

Honey is approxiamtely 18% water by weight. For every 5#'s of dry sugar you will get approximately 7#'s of honey,

>Finally, I think that I read somewhere that you can make a fondant from sugar that was placed on the top bars of the hive as supplemental feed. The bees were supposed to be able to feed on the fondant all winter - even in freezing temperatures. Has anyone actually tried this?

-A lot of people around here use it and swear by it. I never tried it. Most of them have a board that makes a lid with the lid full of candy. Someone says they make a "sugar cake" that they put on the top bars.

Any winter feeding system requires the bees to be able to brake cluster to get to the feed. A dry feed requires the bees to also liquefy it by getting water, then convert it. If it is too cold for the bees to use a liquid feed, any water condensate will be too cold as well, if not frozen.

My method is that I feed in the fall as much as they will take and store. Wrap my hive and make sure that all of the jars are full.

On days with good sun and moderate temperatures as possible, I check the jars, and refill as needed. If the bees are hitting the feeders they need it or want it. You can pick your days to check your hives. You know a good day in winter for your area.

There are also ways to check your hive without openning it up. Put your ear to the boxes and locate the cluster, if it is low in the hive, with boxes above them, they most likely have honey stores above them. If they are in the top box, they most likely need help and are running low on stores.

Once agin, this is a system that I have used for about 7 years and it has worked for me. It's not going to be for everyone based on their location and philosphy.

[This message has been edited by MountainCamp (edited October 29, 2003).]

[zuckerman]

Howdy, can you use a four quart frame feeder instead of upside down jars? if so, does the inner cover go under the feeder (between the brood chamber and the feeder) or over the feeder at the top of the hive? how big should a top ventilation hole /s be?

[Michael Bush]

Usually if you are using a frame feeder it is in the top box on one side so you can refill it without disturbing the cluster and so it will remain warm inside the hive. I always make a ladder for them out of hardware cloth, because it drowns bees even in warm weather, let alone when they are too cold to move well, and I usually make a "clip" to hold the sides together when it's filled. A piece of tin will do, folded to make an upside down "U". I also often put floates in them, small pieces of wood for the bees to climb on. I prefer the frame feeders from Brushy Mt. or Betterbee because they are stiff and don't require the clip and they have a limited access area for the bees so there is less drowning and they provide some kind of ladder for the bees to get out. Brushy Mt. makes them from masonite and wood. Betterbees are plastic, but not like the cheap black flexibles ones.

[zuckerman]

Howdy, I was going to install a frame feeder in an empty medium frame above the main hive, with the inner cover above the feeder and have the feeder centered on the escape hole so I could put more sugar water in as needed, without opening up the hive completely, just remove the top cover and pour through the inner cover. maybe that's too much open area a hive?

[Michael Bush]

If I was going to try for that arrangment I would put an inner cover under the box with the feeder also. That way you have some air space to help prevent condensation and but it's not too much space for the bees to warm.