income from beehives

[jah72577]

Is there any info or personal experience out there about the average potential profit (or loss) per hive when honey, wax etc. is sold on a wholesale basis? It is mentioned that some make a suplimental income from bees or there entire living from them. What are some averages on a per hive basis. Is beekeeping something that someone can realistically make money at? Or would it be consisdered more of a hobby in this day and age?

[Michael Bush]

There are people who make their living keeping bees. Someone once said if you can make $60,000 a year keeping bees you can make twice that doing something else. smile.gif

If you only have a few hives, I'd sell everything retail. The markup is pretty good and you can almost always make a profit (in the long run once the equipment is paid for). Wholesale, sometimes you won't make anything. The hard thing is that it is farming. With all those risks. Some years you get a bumper crop but the price goes in the hole and other years you barely get a crop but the price is good and then, occasionally, you get a good crop when the price is up. smile.gif

[sqkcrk]

You wanna see my P&L from Farming Statements for the last 5 years? On average it's been a loss.

Remember, "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure." So any answer (except mine, of course:) ) is suspect.

My advice is to keep bees because you enjoy it. If you like the work and can sell some honey and stay afloat, you are doing alright.

But unlike other businesses, it's FARMING. Your lucky, at the end of the day, if you come out even. And the end of the day for most FARMERS is after death.

When my Grandpa Porter died the farm was paid for. Uncle Gordon worked for the next 15 years paying off the machinery. Grandpa and Grandma raised 5 kids and Uncle Gordon raised 3 kids, all on that same 200 acre of Iowa farm land. They did alright.

Maybe that isn't what you were asking. Was it?

"average potential profit (or loss)" I don't know, but doubt it.

"make money at?" If by "make money" you mean profit, maybe but not much. Other have done okay.

"hobby"? Unless you want to be a sideliner beekeeper with 300 colonies and another job or commercial with 500 to 5,000 or 50,000 colonies, you will be a hobby beekeeper. This has traditionally been okay for most beekeepers for ages.

Maybe not now, but in the past, most of the hives in the U.S. were owned by people who own 1 or 2 colonies.

[George Fergusson]

Make money selling hive products on a wholesale basis? Not bloody likely. Many people feel the wholesale price of honey is currently below the cost of production. How much money you won't make depends a lot on where you're located. You won't make a lot more down south. In the northern states, you're not going to make a lot less.

[loggermike]

Truth?I could net more profit on welfare than my yearly honey sales right now.China in particular has absolutely ruined the wholesale honey market with their illegal trade practices.Almond pollination is the only thing keeping me(and many others) going .

[sqkcrk]

Michael Bush, maybe you could shed some light on this related question.

Hasn't beekeeping mostly been a "cottage industry" down through the ages? Or have there been other times and places where individuals or families made most of, or all of, their income from beekeeping?

I know that here was a time, after L.L.Langstroth, when we had beekeepers with hundreds of hives, in this country. But what about in Europe or the Medditeranian Region or other regions, in the past?

p.s. you want to make money/profit from beekeeping? you better be willing and able to work as hard as your bees.

[ March 26, 2006, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: sqkcrk ]

[Bob Harrison]

Hand me down beekeeping operations have survived the test of time. All equipment paid for. Established locations and accounts.

New commercial beekeepers have got a tough row to hoe. They usually come on board when either honey prices are up or like now almond pollination fees are high.

Like all farming nothing lasts and the next crisis is right around the corner. Many fortunes have been lost both in beekeeping and farming.

I have lasted because I do not do what the other guys are doing in most instances. The price of honey goes up I chase honey. The price of pollination goes up I chase pollination.

I only keep as many hives around as I need. I store equipment when times are bad. I can double or triple my numbers in spring if needed or reduce by two thirds in the same time period.

I never sit with a piece of paper or calculator and count honey the crop I am going to make. I count drums after the crop is done. I count pollination money after I am leaving the grove with the money in hand.

I watch every penny and buy only what I need to buy. All my operation is paid for.

My expense is actual expense in doing business and upkeep of equipment. When fuel went up I dropped faraway locations. Moved locations closer. Used holding yard in spring. Fuel is a big cost. I use smaller trucks unless I need the bigger gas hog trucks. I try to elimnate useless trips.

One useless trip I did Firday bothered me. All the way to town for a metric screw for the block bolt which holds the alternator bracket on a swinger forklift. I burned $15 worth of gas for a 45 cent bolt. The bolt vibrated loose and was lost while unloading a semi of bees returning from almonds. I needed the forklit so had to go!

Maybe I needed the break!

you have got to control spending. When I get lucky and make money I replace old equipment. I bought two new 55 gallon barrel attachments last year and painted a truck. Bought a trailer load of new equipment equipment from Bell Honey in Florida.

I take a months vacation every year in January (used to be from Halloween to middle March).

I retired in 1998 but still running a small commercial operation. I bought out a beekeeper years ago in 1978 (from his widow) which had died in one of his bee yards> She said he looked like he was asleep when she drove up with his back up against a tire of his bee truck. She said he looked like he was smiling. Maybe I will be as lucky!

She said he spent every awake minute doing bee work. I was amazed at the condition of his equipment and the way his hives looked. All I did the first year was put supers on. I hope to get my outfit in the same condition.

When you see a commercial outfit which is in need of paint or a commercial beekeeper trying to get the last mile out of his old bee truck its not because he wants to but he has to in most cases to survive.

I built my most of my operation out of other beekeepers dead hives! They quit and I cleaned up their deadouts box by box and put bees back in.

Years ago I bought a trailer load of supers from Gary Reynolds (Rainbow Honey Farm). Gary pointed to an old table saw and said he cut out every box in his then 2000 hive operation on the saw. He pointed to a bench and said he put together and wired the 100,000 frames he started with.

He only bought the frames and made everything else.

[Michael Bush]

>Hasn't beekeeping mostly been a "cottage industry" down through the ages? Or have there been other times and places where individuals or families made most of, or all of, their income from beekeeping?

Through the ages? I'm sure usually beekeepers have done other things besides bees. After all you have to keep busy all year long if you're going to be productive. Beekeeping works well between other things. Migratory beekeeping with thousands of hives, I think is a rather recent thing. Recent, as in the last 100 years or less.

[Sundance]

I plan on staying small (500 colonies), diversifing with my apple orchard, and if I must..... do a couple of long haul trucking runs here and there.

Bottom line...........

When I wake on a Monday moring in mid May, wander outside with a cup of coffee, the smell of apple blossums is heavy, and my girls are scurrying around very busy feeding on apple blossums and siberian peabush. Not a single sound of civilization, just mourning doves and the occasional bee wizzing by.

At that moment........ I am wealthy.

[Rob]

Rob Harrison I have two words for you,

"Well Said"

[Bob Harrison]

Bruce,
You are your own boss. you work the bees by choice. Sometimes I just sit and take in the beauty of a spring bee yard. The beauty of a summer flow. At times I like to look at the sky and wonder how all those bees keep from crashing into each other.
My wife does not read internet beekeeping so I can safely say at times I sleep for over an hour on a spring day in the bee yard. Feet stuck out the window of the truck in a remote area. Researchers have found bees do not work constantly and neither do beekeepers!
I do dread out living my friends. I wrote an article about a 101 year old beekeeper for Bee Culture which most of you might have read. Waldo McBurney is now approaching 104. Still keeping over a hundred hives of bees and in excellent health.

[amymcg]

I am a working musician. I am self employed and I'm my own boss. I choose when to take gigs and when I am going to teach music lessons.

On paper last year, I made $180

In reality, I make enough to live.

I think it depends on what you view as a profit/loss. On paper, it doesn't look like I'm all that successful. In reality, I make my own schedule, (I still work about 60 hours a week) I put money in the bank and in my retirement fund and I'm not really struggling.

The most important thing is that you love what you do. I'm living my dream. If you want to make a living keeping bees, then make sure you really want to do that. It will be alot of work, but working for yourself is rewarding when you love what you do.

[BjornBee]

It is very hard to copy or imitate success in beekeeping. The knowledge pool in limited, few written papers on the subject, and overall, most have a negative attitude about beekeeping when it comes to making money.

I would go on a fact finding campaign to find the answer. Beesource was a start. Attend county, state, and national meetings. Make phone calls, write letters. Rub elbows and meet as many beekeepers as possible. Spend much time with people who have good things to say, and excuse yourself from those who don't. Do spreadsheets and business plans based on your localized economy or willingness to expand into markets allowing you the economical base to succeed. Beekeeping in California is different than Kentucky. (Or MI.)

Most who have successful businesses have worked within the field for a time, have much life experience in another business that has a natural carry over effect to the new one, or they have succeedded through learning and making the raod themselves.

Ask successful people what works. Sometimes other people know some of the information and are willing to tell you about a beekeeper they have known for years, even if the actual beekeeper himself may not tell you all his secrets.

Knowing a hive can return 100 or 200 hundred dollars per season does little. Most restuarants fail. 90% within 5 years. Knowing that one makes money, does not answer why the other 9 out of ten failed. Theres more to it. All small businesses are that way. Many fail, few succeed. But with all, the model of success is there. I always say if one has been successful before you, than it can be done again. Knowing what works and what has failed is equally important.

I think as with any business, you better enjoy bees to the fullest. It is hard work. And with many bussinesses, the owner is willing to work many more hours than the hired help. People with jobs, work 40 hours. People with a successful business work 80.

[Sundance]

Bob you encapsulated it so well. Nothing like the "warm, fuzzy feeling" that comes so often in moments like these.

My eldest daughter is "climbing" the ladder at her job. Putting in 70 to 80 hours a week. Her family suffers, she suffers, heck, I suffer just watching.

I try (without medeling) to get the point across that although society tends to measure success by capital gains..... it in more often not the case. Success is moments like you have described. (IMO)

[loggermike]

Bjorn is right on .Pay attention to who is sucessful and learn their methods.I tend to follow the plan as outlined by Bob.Others take out big loans and hope for enough good years to pay off the loans.Their equipment often comes up for sale cheap after they fail.Beekeeping is a LONG term commitment-those who come in at the top of the boom market will soon get hit by a bust.
In spite of my negative comments on the wholesale honey market(all true)I do believe it will turn around.But till then , there are other options.Beekeeping for profit is a lifestyle -either you love it or quit.

[FordGuy]

Bruce, neat that you and I are looking at this in a similar way with the apples! Now I only have 11 hives, with some nucs. (my number goes up and down every time I find a new dead out because of my lack of bee management.) But I have a full acre of apples, about 160 trees. And we are expanding this year to include another crop - at least another full acre.

I'd imagine your apples encompass a much larger acreage, but I plan to be a sideline farmer with my real job being my main source of income.

I am interested to hear about your apples and how it fits in with your bees. Seems this is right on target with the original question too since it goes to the notion that you need to diversify with bees to make $.

[HarryVanderpool]

Great discussion!
I am constantly being asked,"How many hives does it take to make a living?" I always answer, "Its purely math; income vs expenses".
Sometimes they continue, "Well, how many do you need to get by?" I give them a deadpan and say,"Zero".
Of all the attributes, zero debt will always serve you well. Don't worry about keeping up with the Jonses. Tell yourself that you ARE the Jonses.
Dont throw money at problems; throw brain cells.
Most importantly; you have to love it! :cool:

[Sundance]

FordGuy....... I am small time!! Only will have 250 trees myself this summer. I have 3 acres plantable to work with now and am negotiating on an ajoining 15 acres that would be wonderful orchard land!! Near water so frost comes a bit later.

[Michael Bush]

>Dont throw money at problems; throw brain cells.

Good advice.

[jah72577]

let me ask this: what is the typical amount of pounds of honey/beeswax produced per year? What are the typical expenses per hive

[Joel]

As in most agriculture selling your bee products wholesale will be a losing proposition unless your primary income is from pollination, packages, nucs. etc. If you want to make a living at this we figure around 250/300 hives is the average. If you are diverse, market retail and take full advantage of your hives you should be able to produce around $500/hive/yr. A little more in the bounty years, alot less in lean years. Be diverse, don't put your eggs all in one basket (honey, pollen, propolis, nucs, value added products, pollination, supplies) Keep in mind that one bad season in any farming can put you in ruin if you don't have that nest egg to fall back on. Expect to keep about half of your gross income and don't quit your day job until you have the equipment you need and have been running a successful operation for a couple of years or have some independant wealth to count on. Finding or making your niche is the key. Have a plan! Most of all keep it fun and keep you sights set on the next opportunity. You will work twice as hard in your own business and sometimes it will be for low wages. Enjoyment has to be part of your pay check! Good Luck!

[ March 28, 2006, 05:35 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]

[JJ]

Hi everyone, Harry and Joel good answers. Take care JJ

[tecumseh]

rob harrison sezs:
I bought out a beekeeper years ago in 1978 (from his widow) which had died in one of his bee yards> She said he looked like he was asleep when she drove up with his back up against a tire of his bee truck. She said he looked like he was smiling. Maybe I will be as lucky!

tecumseh adds:
when you check out with a smile on your face it may not say you were rich, but it does say something....

[tecumseh]

bjorn sezs:
Most restuarants fail. 90% within 5 years. Knowing that one makes money, does not answer why the other 9 out of ten failed. Theres more to it. All small businesses are that way. Many fail, few succeed. But with all, the model of success is there. I always say if one has been successful before you, than it can be done again. Knowing what works and what has failed is equally important.

tecumseh adds a bit of detail:
well actually you can figure out exactly why the 90% fail. not only is the reason quite clear, it has been quite clear for some time. about 9 out of 10 of the 9 out of 10 new business that fail, fail due to limited financial resources. in short, this represent a failure of planning and can be interpreted as lower than expected receipts or greater than expected expenses, with no financial fall back position to shore up these problem.

[TwT]

>>>>Harry and Joel good answers.<<<<

I agree, good answers!!!!!!

[SantaCruzBee]

Really some wonderful posts you guys.

[GDH]

amymcg:

<On paper last year, I made $180>

Just the stuff IRS likes to find in print....Where did you sleep, what did you eat?

I think I hear something....audit, Audit, AUdit, AUDit, AUDIt, AUDIT.

[DANIEL QUINCE]

C'mon, the man had lots of expenses!! Don't we all?

[FordGuy]

I cringed when I saw that too, Amy. I have represented folks against the IRS and trust me, they are ruthless.

[nursebee]

If a beek sleeps in the truck, seems deductible to me.

Jah, some of your basic questions could be answered by The Hive and the Honeybee. They have business monies explained, hive yields per state, major honey plants in your area. So while this is an interesting discussion, there are books that cover the info.

Personally, I have shown a loss for 5 years but could likely show a profit if I stopped growing. A large NC beek said it took him 200K to get to 1000 hives and equipment to handle them. Folks that know him suggest he has 2 retirement incomes. ANother NC beek started with help from family, grew with purchasing out quitters, took years to grow. He has had at least 4 back operations. ANother beek in NC qoted in the press suggests that he runs 400 hives after cashing in all his chips (mortgage and retirement income). I think he has a new truck and swinger, was chasing some of that almond money this year. Per recent article in bee mag, I can't help but wonder if his hves were accepted???

Learn to keep some bees well before going all business on it. You will see the costs add up on a few hives. As you grow a little, you will see how bulk purchasing or DIY will help. Then you need bigger equipment and more wives to clean up after you (mine is just effecient).

[tecumseh]

nursebee sezs:
Learn to keep some bees well before going all business on it.

tecumseh adds a bit of detail:
well it is often stated that there are few impediments to entering the beekeeping business. one of the more obvious and many time undiscussed limitations is knowledge and especially the full spectrum of strategies for dealing with problem that typically rise on a day by day manner.

[wfarler]

Most books on farming begin with 'first you cut your expenses'. One actually had a long discussion on how to limit your trips to town to less than once per week. Now I'd be happy to limit them even more (wally world to zero) but that is not business advice! Least not how to make a profit.

My reply to the orginal question (with much gratitude to all that have posted - especially Harrison who should be elevated to Sage Bee) is the first year you enjoy this so much you ask how much money can I make doing this all the time. I have many spreadsheets dated back to that year, especially the winter that followed.

The second year you ask how much money can I make doing this all the time and why am I having these deadouts and mites? Time to revise the assumptions in your spreadsheets. Oh, I forgot wholesale honey prices are not @1.35 anymore.

The third year you delete all your spreadsheets and there is still unassembled woodenware and frames in the barn not because your lazy but because of the deadouts (varroa has a nice 2nd year punch). Your asking what job can I have that allows me to balance my life.

Fourth year you are having some real success, Overwintering with 70% success seems like success and not failure. Pollenation fees are historical highs and your thinking, maybe I can make 1 to 100 splits and turn those four hives into 400 this year for a semi to California.

Guess what? You are leaning how to do this! all except that make 4 hives into 400 part (that's your lesson for next year).

God ain't this great? Don't you just love it? Tell me you don't know what happening in nature around you just so much more that you can't stand it? Can't you just look inside a hive or at the landing board and be aware of what every tree or flower is blooming or not?

Heck, who do I pay to get to keep bees? (dadant, mannlakeltd, whoweaver, beeglory, oops I need to send barry a check).

[ March 29, 2006, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: wfarler ]

[FordGuy]

wfarler, so nice I read your post to my wife. Thanks.