Challenging predicament

[beekeeper39]

Two of my ten new hives this year have a queen problem. One of them is completely queenless while another has a laying worker. Both of these hives a very weak population-wise, and only have a deep brood chamber as of right now--and it's not even close to half full.

I think I have the solution to this problem, but am not sure. I believe I should do as follows:

1) Get rid of the laying worker by taking the hive about 100 feet or more away and brushing off all bees and then returning hive to original stand location.

2) Combine the laying worker hive with the queenless hive by placing a sheet of newspaper over the laying worker hive and placing the queenless hive on top of that.

3) The next day, requeen the now combined colony with a new purchased queen.

I think that I will be going about this correctly. I know that I will most likely not get much of a harvest --if any-- from this hive, but I can't afford to completely lose two hives.

Also, the queen I will be getting isn't like what I have read, with a candy plug; it is just a piece of cork. Any ideas on how to safely release the queen into the hive?

Thank-you in advance!!

[searcher]

[ScadsOBees]

You might want to consider requeening the queenless hive first, since a queenless hive will more than likely be more receptive to a new queen, then once she is laying shake out and combine the laying worker hive.

If you don't have a candy plug, then try what MB says and replace the cork with a small marshmallow and they should eat through that in about the same amount of time as queen candy.

[Michael Bush]

>1) Get rid of the laying worker by taking the hive about 100 feet or more away and brushing off all bees and then returning hive to original stand location.

While that will demoralize them a bit, and increase the odds of accepting a queen, IMO it will not get rid of the laying workers (there are proabably many). They will simply fly back to the old location.

>2) Combine the laying worker hive with the queenless hive by placing a sheet of newspaper over the laying worker hive and placing the queenless hive on top of that.

Very bad idea. The laying workers will not have a queen to challenge their authority nor provide the pheromones to stop them from laying and having the laying workers in the queenless hive will now decrease the chance of them ever accepting a queen.

>3) The next day, requeen the now combined colony with a new purchased queen.

I would requeen the queenless one first and wait a week or so for her to get established. Then shake the laying worker one out on the ground in front of that hive.

>Also, the queen I will be getting isn't like what I have read, with a candy plug; it is just a piece of cork. Any ideas on how to safely release the queen into the hive?

No. It's not very safe to do a direct release. If the hive had just been queenless overnight, the odds might be better, actually. But it's an unpredictable situation now. I'd do a candy release. Just put a marshmallow in the hole, or if you want, make some candy by taking a bit of powdered sugar and mixing in some corn syrup until it's like cookie dough.

[beekeeper39]

So michael, you're saying to requeen the queenless one first and then brush the bees from the laying worker hive in front of the requeened hive? That just doesn't sound like it will work to me unless I'm understanding you incorrectly.

The idea behind shaking the laying worker hive out 100 feet or more away is that the laying workers will not be able to find their way back, but the field bees in the hive will be able to, which is why you place the hive back on the original hive stand.

I apologize if I sound stubborn, but your idea just doesn't sound like it will work; the bbes shaken in front of the newly requeened hive will jsut go back to their old location, even if you put the equipment into storage.

[Michael Bush]

>So michael, you're saying to requeen the queenless one first and then brush the bees from the laying worker hive in front of the requeened hive?

Preciesly.

>That just doesn't sound like it will work to me unless I'm understanding you incorrectly.

I think you got the idea, you just don't understand why it will work.

>The idea behind shaking the laying worker hive out 100 feet or more away is that the laying workers will not be able to find their way back

But all the research (and all of my experience) says the laying workers WILL find their way back. That was the theory used to explain why shaking them out SOMETIMES helps in a laying worker situation. But all the research I've seen says it's not true.

> but the field bees in the hive will be able to, which is why you place the hive back on the original hive stand.

All of them will find their way back and you will still be in the same position as before. I would REMOVE the laying worker hive entirely so they ALL have to move into some other hive. The laying workers (of which there are many and who will find their way back no matter what you do) will not be able to take over as queen in a queenright hive. They WILL take over as queen if you let them fly back to the old hive (which they will do) and then combine them with a queenless hive. Then you will have a very LARGE laying worker hive.

>I apologize if I sound stubborn, but your idea just doesn't sound like it will work;

I've done it many times. It does work. When I have a laying worker hive I just remove the equipment and shake them out on the ground in front of other hives.

>the bbes shaken in front of the newly requeened hive will jsut go back to their old location,

Not if there is no equipment there. They will have to move in somewhere.

>even if you put the equipment into storage.

Which I would do. That or put it on some other hive.

If you really want to insure they go to a PARTICULAR hive, you could requeen the queeenless hive. Wait a week. Shake out the laying worker hive to demorlize them and then immediately do a newspaper combine. But a newspaper combine with a laying worker hive has not always been sucessful for me. I'd be more likely to put the laying worker hive on a double screen board above the queenright hive for a week or two and then combine.

[Rob-bee]

I would follow Michael’s advice he seems to know a "little" about bees. Just kidding Michael, you give great advice from experiance, which is the best teacher. Hats off too you. :)

[Jason Groppel]

I hear Michael is going to be a speaker at the Heartland Apicultural Society convention in Carbondale, Illinois this July 7-9.
Apparently several people think he knows something about bees...including me.
We are going to have to start calling Michael, "Mr. Bush" from now on. smile.gif
Michael, I look forward to seeing you there.
Jason G in TN

[beeman 202]

If you have 8 queenright colonies, brush out both colonies in front of the other eight. Then if you want to get back to ten order two queens and pull several frames of bees/honey/pollen/brood from the stronger hives to start nucs, which you could feed into strong enough hives to winter.

Michael is right in that brushed out bees that have no home to go to will be adopted by the other hives/ assimilated.

It will be much easier to make nucs from bees that have been queenless for 24 hours rather than from bees that have been queenless for 24 days.

[Michael Bush]

>It will be much easier to make nucs from bees that have been queenless for 24 hours rather than from bees that have been queenless for 24 days.

Yes, it will.

[Joel]

It also helps to do it on a sunny day when the field workers are out and returning to the adopted hive with honey and pollen.

[beebloke]

Hi,
What stops a laying worker wandering back to another hive and start laying again? Do they automatically stop laying if there is a queen in that hive?

WE just came back from three hives that we were given and two have laying workers.we also have a spare nuc i dont want to keep over winter.Im thiking of making the nuc up into a ten frame box and putting it between the two laying worker hives then emptying them.

Will this be to close to the original laying worker boxes or would it be better to put the made up box a bit further away leaving the original two stands empty?

Thank you
Beebloke

[Robert Hawkins]

bloke, I'd say you're in deep kimchee. Nothing stops the laying worker. But a queen right hive might not let her in. Give it a try. distance won't matter. Laying workers can fly. Help me understand.

At first you said emptying them, then you said leaving them empty. Is there a difference? Both laying worker hives need to get shaken out. The frames can be reused. I'm assuming here that the spare nuc is queen right.

Good luck,

Hawk

[beebloke]

HI,guys
Hawk,
I was going to empty out the laying worker hives,take the equipment away leaving the spot they stood on empty,The nuc will be made into a ten box at another yard,it will have a queen.

Im just thinking instead of placing it between where the laying worker hives were i could put it a good few feet away so returning bees find nothing at thier original site.They then can drift to the new hive ive brought in and the queen right hive that was one of the three at this site.This way i get a quick increase in numbers in the new hive.
Just wondering what happens when a laying worker(s) walk into a queenright hive.

Thank you
Beebloke

[Robert Hawkins]

Yeah, let us know what happens.

Seriously she should get run out. Only the workers of her home hive think she's their queen. Problem is I bet she does too. Might be a fight. The good point is the real queen will win the fight. She can sting repeatedly and not die.If I were you I'd let it ride and get more opinions.

I honestly don't feel confident about laying workers solutions. I would probably shake em out and let them die. That what they get for not making a queen. But I'm trying to breed easy bees. That means problem bees are allowed to die. Or not allowed to pass on the problem to another generation. I do understand not wanting to lose the amount of bees. I'd just choose differently.

don't forget to report back on this.

Hawk