Does varroa caused deformities?

[Daisy]

I placed this question in the bee diseases section.

Some of the bees have deformed wings, and I'm treating for varroa mites since last week. I don't know how long they've had this. This is my second season for keeping bees.

I've added oil and sugar patties with essential oils. I've fed them herbal tea with sugar and honey today, and I've been putting vicks salve on poster board and slipping it into the entrance. A very very thin layer of salve.......

And I've sprayed the bees with a solution of sugar water and wintergreen.

If this doesn't kill em. (so far it hasn't) what can I expect now?

[BjornBee]

Yes.

The varroa mite can transmit up to around 12 various viruses and side deseases. All of which are not fully understood. The deformed wing is one symptom but can also be found with t-mites as well. It is not always the amount of mites in the hive as it can also be the level of these side deseases transmitted to bees that will eventually kill the hive.

Anything you do to combat the mites should be monitored by testing and then retesting to see what is working and what is not. Are you sugar-roll testing or doing a timed mite fall count?

[Michael Bush]

The least invasive monitoring technique is to put a postor board or something else smooth and white under the bees. You can either put vasoline, or Food Grade Mineral Oil or if you have it under a Screened Bottom Board, perhaps nothing on it. Leave it for 24 hours and count the mites on the board. There are various estimates on what constitutes a problem but if you have 50 - 100 mites you have a pretty serious infestation. If you have more than that you have a reall serious infestation. If you only have four or five you're doing well. You should do this before you do any treatment because this is the NATURAL mite fall. Now you clean off the board and retreat it (if it is not under a SBB (Screened Bottom Board)) and treat the mites by whatever method you have chosen and measure the fall. If there is not significant difference, then you need to try something else.

You need a measurment of the infestation and you need a measurement of the effectivness of your treatment.

[Daisy]

Bjorn, Sounds like my bees could die off this winter.......

Well, I hope I've done all that can be done for them.

I think the essential oils has caused the bees in one of the hives (that I know of) to build supercedure cells. The pheromes are masked by the fragrance of the oils.

This could be a good thing. Maybe.

[Daisy]

Micheal, going by this information, it would appear that I don't have a very serious situation.

I counted the mites on two of the hives today and I counted four to six mites on the board which means maybe a dozen or so fell.

I've placed the white poster board with a thin fresh coating of vicks vapo rub each day for the past five or six days.

I have a roll of window screen. Is there a way I can use it on the beehive bottom board that will be of some benefit to the situation?

What started as a peaceful pasttime has turned into stress. ;(

I've watched beekeepers working in their hives and they make it look so easy. LOL

[BjornBee]

Were still talking the last week of July. Not sure where your from but there should be time to go through several cycles of brood rearing between now and frost. Don't give up yet.

Do one of the tests to determine mite level. Choose sugar-roll test, ether test, or a mite fall test to determine mite rate. FGMO, essential oils and even chemical strips could be put in an infested hive at anytime to save it. I am not against doing what is needed.

I am a big advocate of having another beekeeper in your area, if possible, stopping by and taking a look in case maybe its not mites and perhaps something else that could be corrected.

Until the situation is corrected/eliminated, feed for the rest of the year. This will keep the queen from stopping her egg production which normally happens around august when the main flows stop. This will also take some stress off the bees and allow them to increase the numbers in the hive and maybe they will benefit from the fall flow if it happens in your area.

[Michael Bush]

The object isn't to do "everthing you can" for the bees. It's to do what it takes to handle the mites etc. If what you are doing is working then that's great. A mite fall that low is a good thing, but I've seen them with that low an infestation in July and they still fall apart in September. I don't understand why there is such a population boom for the mites in the fall, but there is. I would monitor them again in August and again in September.

Also, I am not aware of the efficacy of the treatments you are using. My guess is that the vicks will only keep the wax moths out and make the honey taste funny. Of course it will catch the mites that fall in it naturally as will vasoline, which smells much better. I would NOT spray a lot of essential oils on the bees for the very reason you have experiences. If you get too much of some other smell on the queen they may supercede a perfectly good queen. I have fed Wintergreen in the spring and fall in syrup but not to kill Varroa mites, but for general health. I think it helps them fight some of the viruses carried by the mites.

Your real choices for Varroa Control that has at least some research and a considerable following are:

FGMO (food grade mineral oil): See http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000041.html and http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000099.html. The fogger also works on Tracheal mites. This is an inert chemical and is approved as a food additive.

Small Cell/Genetics/natural food: see http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/index.htm This also helps with Tracheal mites. Doesn't use any chemicals.

Oxalic Acid: see http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000468-2.html also there are now Oxalic Acid strips available. This is an organic acid that is naturally occuring in honey.

Formic Acid: This is more dependant on temperature than Oxalic. It is also an organic acid (normally produced by ants in large amounts)

Apistan: This is a pesticide. The mites are building up resistance. Sometimes it won't work because of resistance. Has to be used when the supers are off.

Check Mite: This is a pesticide. It is very strong and I have friends who lost their bees after usinging it. I suspect the the Check Mite was toxic to the bees. Has to be used when the supers are off.

Thymol oil: There are some products available in Europe, but I haven't heard of them here yet that use Thymol oil to kill the mites. It has that strong Listerine smell and taste, so you don't want it in your honey

[Daisy]

Thanks for the advice Bjorn. ;0)

I'd like to make a comment....

I went to nursing school and didn't make it because I couldn't be objective with my job. I was being taught to be empathetic, not sympathetic. Well..........

I couldn't stop myself from the sympathetic emotions and decided I wasn't cut out to be a nurse.

Now I find I'm having the same emotional attachment to bees. I worry too much. Well, this could create more problems for the bees then if I left well enough alone.

How fortunate are the folks who were raised with beekeeping parents and grandparents! I wonder if they know how fortunate they are. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Daisy]

Micheal, again thanks for the advice.

To be precise...... and I value your opinion,

I set out to treat my bees as if it were Oct or Sept because I know they have to go into the fall strong, to make it through winter. All in the hopes of having honey next year, (keeping my fingers crossed on that one). What I did was, I made five quarts of herbal tea water and added sugar and spiked it with their own honey and put it out in the beeyard for them to take. While they were at the jars getting the nectar, I sprayed some of the wintergreen (two cc's in a pint of sugar water) on them, into the air where they were flying. This is the only treatment I plan to give them this year. I'm hope this builds their immune system, and helps them to shed mites off others they come in contact with inside the hive. But yes, I think we have the supercedure process going on in one of the hives.

I smashed the cells, but I don't think I'll smash them again If they build more. And likely they will........Sigh, Oh well...

I won't use my mite treatment anymore. I'll check them again in October as you suggested......

I hope I'm not so uptight this time next year. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

I'll read those links you pasted. Thanks a fortune!!!

[Michael Bush]

My theory on supercedure is, unless you have a breeder queen whose genetics are very special to you in some way, the bees know best. Let them do it. A supercedure is not that much of a disruption to a hive. Often the new queen will be laying before they dispose of the old one. I do worry about causing one artificially, such as with the wintergreen.

[jimbee]

I guess that I'm confused with use of the Vick's Vapor Rub, Herbal Tea and Wintergreen/ sugar syrup mixtures?

I'm familar with using essential oils to try to combat mites but this is a new one on me.

[Daisy]

Jimbee, Please consider that I don't know what I'm doing.

My rational,

I gave the bees a weak solution of herbal tea instead of plain sugar water. No one has instructed me to do this. I'm thinking that by steeping some herbs in the bees water, they'd get some trace minerals out of it and maybe it was better then plain sugar water. I rationalize that by doing this now, they'd be healthier coming into fall. I thought that since I was preparing them sugar water anyway, I might well steep some herbs in with it.

The Vapo rub (from the Dollar Store, which has more EO's then Vicks) has essential oils in it. I didn't want to put strips of this along the brood nest walls because it just doesn't seem right to me. (but what do I know?) So I put a very thin layer of it on the white poster board on the floor and I have to tell ya, in the one hive that I was and am still concerned about, lots of mites fell right away. After five days, this hive is dropping so few that there might be a chance that if nothing else, (depending on the condition) I may combine it with another hive. But that's two months away.....

If anyone is interested, I'll let them know how the bees doing in two months. And who makes it into spring.

If I've upset anyone, I'll go away quietly.

[Daisy]

Micheal regarding supercedure If caused by wintergreen......

I had and still have no idea if this is what is causing it.

It was after I used the wintergreen that I discovered the cells. I didn't put this into context until I read in a research study that the eo's might alter the queen scent and cause emergency building of queen cells.

I pretty sure that hive is queen rite because I saw her last week. So I deduced.

But, the hive was crowded as well, so I have provided more space and ventilation. It's a toss up as to why they did this.

I'm not going back inside this hive for a couple of months. If they supercede, they supercede. I feel as if I've interfered too much since I discovered mites.

[BjornBee]

Daisy,
The best thing about a forum like this is that nobody really knows who you are. You can be as straight talking/tough/in your face as you want to be. (Within reason of social exceptability of course) Don't be so soft. And don't go quietly, nobody else does.

I'm actually an 87 year old women, with arthritus, a replaced knee, false teeth,.....

[Michael Bush]

You can upset people around here, but not by using vapo rub or by trying things. We're just trying to understand what you are doing and why so we can help. I wouldn't just assume an herbal tea is good for bees because it's good for people. The vapo rub has menthol in it, which is a good treatment for tracheal mites. I don't know if it's a good delivery mechanism or if the amounts are efficacious against Tracheal mites. The Eucalyptus is useful against Wax moths, but I don't know if it's effective against anything else. The Petroleum Jelly is useful to trap mites that fall, but I don't know what else it's useful for. That fact that you got more mite fall when using it is promising.

If you want to not use chemicals, and I try not to and am currently not using any, you can try the other methods I mentioned above. There is more data on how useful they are. I am currently using small cell and Food Grade Mineral Oil Fog and currently my mite levels are very low. Some hives have none and some have a few. (four or five mites in 24hours)

[Daisy]

Thanks Micheal. Well then let me say what is in my herbal tea.

I am steeping about a cup of dried red clover blossoms in about a gallon and a half of boiling hot water. I tie them up in bunches into a coffee filter. Three bunches in all.

I add the sugar after I turn off the heat and stir.

I wonder if the the clover blossoms offer a natural nutritional suppliment for the bees?

[ChellesBees]

Daisy,
Relax. Perhaps you are trying just a little to hard. This board is an absolute wealth of information, and one way or another, you will get through this.
The Vapo rub idea is rather inspired, I read somewhere about melting the menthol crystals in oil and soaking shop towels in it, this is probably similar. It may need refining, but possibly has merit.
I doubt that the herbal tea will do much good, but I could be wrong.
Maybe you should look at this more as a science experiment, and try not to emotionally attach yourself to the bees too much. Trust me, they will not reciprocate.
Hang in there.
Michelle

[Michael Bush]

Pretty much nectar (and syrup) is an energy source. Pretty much pollen is the source bees use for serious nutrients. There are some trace minerals etc in nectar. My guess is that it's more work than it's worth but the clover may give it a smell and bees always take syrup with some smell better than syrup without.

[Daisy]

;^) Michelle

You've got me pegged right..

What can I say?//