Mites, mites, and more *#$# mites

[Louise]

Another beautiful sunny day in Portland and I decided to take the hives apart and do some spring cleaning. In my strong hive, I actually saw a mite on a bee (wait, I never marked my queen, what, is that . . .!)! I also saw a bee with deformed wings, but overall plenty of bees, lots of brood, nice laying pattern etc.

Then I opened my weak hive. Irregular brood pattern - capped next to eggs (I finally get it!) - and some of the capped broken open revealing dead bees. I pulled some out, no wings, weird shriveled bodies. A lot less bees and at this rate, declining fast.

So I dusted both hives. I want to put in a patty with essential oils and stick some drone comb in tomorrow.

What do you think - is this enough? Should I dust every few days for a while? My drone comb is already drawn out, so theoretically I could pull it as soon as 8 days (if she lays immediately and it gets capped). I'm hesitant to reduce the population any further, but if it acts as a mite sink, it might actually allow the other brood to live.

Any other ideas?

Thanks.

[Axtmann]

Louise if you like to save your colonies you MUST destroy all brood. Take them in a freezer to save the frames and combs. Give your bees empty combs to breed on and vaporize two times with oxalic acid 3 days apart. You will kill all mites outside the cells and give your colonies a mite free start. That’s the ONLY way if it’s not to late.
Don’t wait, 1 Varroa in January will end up with approx 200 in December without a treatment.
With crippled wings your bees already have a virus and it comes from the Varroa mites. There is no medication available to kill this virus, get rid of the mites and your bees getting rid of the virus in no time.

[Michael Bush]

Dusting with what? Powdered sugar? That will help. People dust with Terramycin for AFB, so I'm not sure what you are dusting with.

I would say if you have serious mite problems I would go for a serious solution. Thymol crystals, Thymol in FGMO, Oxalic acid would come to mind as quick fixes that I would consider. Some would use Apistan or Check-mite.

Then in the long run you need to decide what you're going to do. Some things, like FGMO fog (without the thymol) require constant use. Small cell takes some time to get there, but doesn't require the constant attention.

[Louise]

Axtmann, I'm not sure I understand.

>Louise if you like to save your colonies you MUST destroy all brood. Take them in a freezer to save the frames and combs.

Is this because the mites are in the cells? Will none of these treatments get into the brood cells?

>vaporize two times with oxalic acid 3 days apart.

How do you vaporize - or is this question for another forum?

>With crippled wings your bees already have a virus and it comes from the Varroa mites.

I thought it was from the mites parisitizing on the bees while they were growing. What is the virus?

[Louise]

Michael,

Dusting with powdered sugar. That will help, but not get any mites that are in the cells, right?

>I would say if you have serious mite problems I would go for a serious solution. Thymol crystals, Thymol in FGMO, Oxalic acid would come to mind as quick fixes that I would consider.

Will the thymol crystals work if it is only in the 50's-60's ? I always thought it needed to be warmer?

The FGMO is applied with a fogger, like the oxalic acid, right? Where can I get more detailed info on how to do it (step by step)? I really would like to avoid check-mite/apistan.

>Then in the long run you need to decide what you're going to do.

My plan was drone trapping, powdered sugar dusting and essential oil patties, including thymol in the summer.
Is that just not enough, or will it be once I get this outbreak under control?

[Michael Bush]

>Dusting with powdered sugar. That will help, but not get any mites that are in the cells, right?

Under IDEAL conditions, acording the research I've seen, powdered sugar will get rid of 90% of the mites. But ideal conditions are a matter of temperature, amount of sugar, etc.

More realistic numbers seem to be between 45% to 80% of the phoretic mites (the ones outside the cells). While this is certainly useful, it is similar to FGMO fog. It's useful as a long term approach, certainly, but you want to knock out a lot of mites in a hurry. And of course it won't kill the ones in the cells.

>Will the thymol crystals work if it is only in the 50's-60's ? I always thought it needed to be warmer?

I've never used the Thymol and don't consider myself an expert. Axtman has used them.

>The FGMO is applied with a fogger, like the oxalic acid, right? Where can I get more detailed info on how to do it (step by step)? I really would like to avoid check-mite/apistan.

The FGMO with thymol would probably be a good idea. http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/abjsept2003.htm

In the long run plain FGMO fog and maybe also the cords will work to keep it under control. http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/index.htm

The Oxalic acid is a completely different method of fogging. Here's a cheap homeade evaporator that Topbarguy (aka BWrangler) came up with and I've used: http://fire.prohosting.com/topbargu/oxal.htm

A commercial one is here: http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/Vaporizer.htm

The oxalic acid strips are here: http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/new_oxamite.htm

>My plan was drone trapping, powdered sugar dusting and essential oil patties, including thymol in the summer.
Is that just not enough, or will it be once I get this outbreak under control?

Any one of these will probably be enough once it's under control. The powdered sugar alone, the drone trapping alone, the thymol alone will probably keep the Varroa under control. The grease patties will probably keep the Tracheal mites under control. I haven't been that fond of the smell of Thymol. The drone trapping is a big investment for the bees to raise all those drones and then lose them. They will raise more to replace them and that costs resources. But it will work.

[Axtmann]

Louise no off the all treatments penetrates the closed brood cells except formic acid in a high dosage. But formic acid needs warm temperatures.
Same with Thymol crystals it need warm temp to evaporate. Check mite or Apistran can’t help you because it doesn’t penetrate closed cells. Terramycin doesn’t work on AVP or CPV as far as I know from the bee institutes
FGMO is the last I would recommend in your case because of the AVP (Acute Paralyse virus) and the CPV (Chronis he Paralyse virus).
As soon as you can see bees with crippled wings and deformed bodies there are a high virus infection (up to 80-90%) in the brood cells.
There is NO way to get the outbreak under control except you MUST remove ALL brood frames from the infected hives. If you let the bees go without removing the brood frames like I said before your high infected colonies dying within 6 to 8 weeks.

Vaporized oxalic acid is a quick fix …. but only on the bees NOT on infected brood or mites in closed cells. Ask Bwrangler for a vaporizer or go to the Vaporizer website. With a virus infection you can’t wait for a fix in a long run treatment.

[Louise]

Michael, thanks for all the links.

I have to tell you, all the images of blowtorches and pipes is a little intimidating. Will the FGMO be effective if I just use it with thymol in the cords? In other words, can I avoid fogging? My guess is that like dusting with sugar, it doesn't reach into the cells, but does fogging get into cells?

[Louise]

Axtmann,
you are saying take ALL the brood cells out and kill them (eggs, larva and capped brood). At the same time put in empty comb for the queen to lay in. And treat the mites on the bees.

And you think the best way to treat the mites on the bees is with oxalic acid vaporized, right? Is there anything else? I'm a little concerned with the safety precaution list on the oxalic acid - I hate it when things tell me to wear gloves and not to leave in too long.

[Michael Bush]

The only problems I've seen with oxalic acid is making sure you don't breath the fumes. Not because they are poisonous, but because they are major irritant to your lungs. You will have a coughing fit if you breath them. I just stand upwind and it's not a problem.

I guess I've soldered too many copper pipes in my life to be put off by heating some pipe fittings with a torch. You can buy the fittings today along with the oxalic acid at the hardware store and vaporize them this afternoon. If you are buying anything else, it will probably take a week to get the equipment and chemicals (thymol etc.)

From my experience the oxalic acid seems to be the most effective in the shortest time.

I have not been in the position you are in, with the viruses and the major infestation. I can't say if Axtmans advice is the best or not, but it does makes sense. If you have a major infestation of mites and infection of the viruses, then most of the bees from that brood will be deformed and useless anyway.

Since you have all those deformed bees, odds are at this point in the process, you probably can't save them anyway. The simplest is probably to just give it up and let them die and start over. But I assume you want to do something. Personally, I'd do the oxalic acid.

[Louise]

> You can buy the fittings today along with the oxalic acid at the hardware store and vaporize them this afternoon.

Ya, but could I? I've never soldered anything in my life (I've used a hot glue gun http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif ).

>From my experience the oxalic acid seems to be the most effective in the shortest time.

I love that. I guess I need to read BWrangler's thing over again. Just all those pictures of different fittings and pipes gave me that glazed over look and nothing else penetrated.

Sigh. Beekeeping is hard.

[Michael Bush]

The "soldering" reference was simply because that process also includes a torch and some pipes, but soldering is more complicated. These pipes just screw together and you don't have to solder anything.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited March 22, 2004).]

[dcross]

<<I pulled some out, no wings, weird shriveled bodies. >>

Were the shriveled wings all on bees that had not emerged yet?

[db_land]

Louise,
My 1st hive became infested with varroa during the summer of its 2nd year. Deformed bees were all over (almost a constant stream of one or two bees crawling out the entrance). I treated with Apistan. The hive recovered and I treated in the fal;l again. It went into winter in good condition. The next spring, I harvested 120 lbs honey from it. So don't give up hope for your hive. I don't use Apistan anymore. I too recommend Oxalic acid, one treatment a week for the next 4-6 weeks. Check the mite drop each day and smile as you see the mites dying and your bees thriving.

[Louise]

dcross:
no, the shriveled wings were also on live bees in the hive.

db_land:
do you use oxalic acid strips or fogging? I am still hoping to find a way out of trying to make this crazy fogging contraption. . . why don't any of you live over here so I could just see one in action and bribe you to help me?

Did I mention that on top of all this crazy hive stuff I have a sick baby and 2 sick fish? And today is supposed to be the last sunny day before we get a stretch of rain? Sorry, just needed to complain a bit.

[Axtmann]

Louise when soldering the copper pipes you must be sure that they can’t fall apart when you heath the oxalic acid. The acid needs approx 180 Celsius / 356 Fahrenheit to evaporate totally. If you go to high with your heath the soldering parts can fall apart and you’re in trouble with the hot acid. The manufactured vaporizer has tread on the ends before they are soldered for the safety to the beekeeper.
I personally can recommend the vaporizer 200JB for a 12-volt car battery. There is no trouble outside not even with oxalic fog. I fill the tray with crystals (2 grams = half teaspoon) put it in the entrants and close the hive with foam. After 1 mins I remove the vaporizer quick and hold the entrants closed for 10 mins. That’s the whole process and the acid cost you maybe 1 or 2 cents.

[mattoleriver]

>do you use oxalic acid strips or fogging? I am still hoping to find a way out of trying to make this crazy fogging contraption. . . why don't any of you live over here so I could just see one in action and bribe you to help me?

Hi Louise,
I live out on the east side of town and I have all of the necessary equipment to fog per the TopBarGuy method. I'd be willing to help you but, and this is a very big BUT, I am not even a beginner yet. I'm still waiting for my first bees and I have, obviously, never tried this thing out before. I've studied the process and see nothing that seems too complicated or intimidating. If you're willing to let your bees be the guinea pigs I'd be willing to fog them for you.
George

[Louise]

George,
I'm willing! I love this forum!
I'll e-mail you and let's set up a time.
Thanks!

[Louise]

George is coming tomorrow to help me fog and today I have plans to remove the brood. Here are some questions:

How long does it take to kill a mite in the freezer? What about the viruses (can they live off of the bees?). I'd like to replace the drawn comb as soon as possible, I don't have enough.

Fogging works even when the bees are clustered, right?

If I remove brood and fog twice the hive should be virtually mite-free. My strong hive I won't remove brood, but I will fog. That means that capped brood and larva will still have mites, right? So it is a gamble to put brood +/or bees from my strong hive into my weak hive? If I start on mite maintenance, shouldn't I do it to help boost the population?

Thanks.

[Louise]

One more:

I neeed to get all the honey supers off before we fog - right? One hive it is still capped (left over from the winter) but the other hive is full of fresh nectar.

[Michael Bush]

>How long does it take to kill a mite in the freezer?

I don't know what I think of destroying all the brood, but if you're going to freeze them, I'd leave them overnight.

>What about the viruses (can they live off of the bees?).

The infected bees will still be infected, but it's the mites that spread the virus.

>I'd like to replace the drawn comb as soon as possible, I don't have enough.

After freezing overnight you can put them back.

>Fogging works even when the bees are clustered, right?

That's what Axtman says. I've always only done it when the bees were flying.

>If I remove brood and fog twice the hive should be virtually mite-free.

Virtually.

>My strong hive I won't remove brood, but I will fog.

That's what I'd do with the strong one.

>That means that capped brood and larva will still have mites, right?

Yes.

>So it is a gamble to put brood +/or bees from my strong hive into my weak hive?

I'm guessing your strong hive is not as badly infested. There will always be mites.

In 12 days all of the capped brood will have emerged. So if you fog three times, a week apart you will get most all of the mites that are currently in the cells.

>If I start on mite maintenance, shouldn't I do it to help boost the population?

I would. The other advantage is they will stay in the hive better with some live brood. Taking all of the brood out of the hive may make them want to abscond. I would put at least one frame of OPEN brood in the weak hive and I would put an excluder on the bottom board so the queen can't leave. Another frame of emerging brood wouldn't hurt.

>I neeed to get all the honey supers off before we fog - right?

I would.

>One hive it is still capped (left over from the winter) but the other hive is full of fresh nectar.

Do you have a bee escape? You could put the nectar and honey on top of a bee escpae (preferably a triagular one) and there will be few bees left in them. Then move them off, fog and when you are done put them back on.

Be sure to stand up wind. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Louise]

OK one more question.

If the mites kill their hosts, how long can they live off of them? In other words the capped brood that contains dead bees - does it also contain dead mites or have they already emerged or will they emerge when another bee opens the cell? Does anyone even know?

I appreciate your thoughts on my brood death plan. The 4 frames I saw had very little new eggs and larva and lots of capped/dead brood. But there is another box that I will check out today, so I'm wondering how to decide which to kill and which to leave.

[Michael Bush]

>If the mites kill their hosts, how long can they live off of them? In other words the capped brood that contains dead bees - does it also contain dead mites or have they already emerged or will they emerge when another bee opens the cell? Does anyone even know?

Varroa mites cannot live on a dead bee. I've never seen the larvae die in the cell from the mites, nor have I heard of this. But the viruses will cripple the bee and they come out deformed. It is possible that the brood died from a chilled nest because there are not enough bees to keep the brood warm.

>I appreciate your thoughts on my brood death plan. The 4 frames I saw had very little new eggs and larva and lots of capped/dead brood.

Do you mean lots of dead open brood and just capped brood or brood that is capped and dead? I would not expect to see a lot of dead capped brood with varroa. I'm not trying to scare you, but if you have a lot of dead capped brood, I would test for AFB. Push a matchstick or similar sized stick, in the dead capped cell and pull it out slowly and see if it strings. If it does, you can buy test kits for AFB from all the major bee suppliers now. I don't see it in their online catalogs, but I'm pretty sure Brushy Mt, Dadant, and Mann Lake have it in their paper catalogs this year.
http://www.kohala.net/bees/index.html#anchor400987

Also, if they are already dead and the bees aren't cleaning out the dead brood, they will have trouble cleaning out any frames you freeze too.

[db_land]

Louise: I fog ala bwrangler style. What's this about "lots of capped/dead brood" ??
The mites are only in with the capped brood, which eventually emerge weakened/damaged but alive. Do you have uncapped dead brood? If so, why (maybe chilled brood)? If you freeze the comb (which I wouldn't do) all brood and mites will be dead.

[Louise]

Here is the update:

George came over and we went through the medium hive. Lots of bees, lots of brood, nice even laying pattern, but between 2 of the boxes they had build a lot of drone comb and as I pulled frames out some of the larva were exposed. MITES! Tons of mites. I scrapped all the drone comb off, including the few cells at the bottoms of the frames.

The weak hive is really weak. The top box had 4 frames of the irregular brood I described before and the rest capped honey from the fall with no bees. The bottom box was half empty and had a few frames of brood. So, I forced them all into the bottem box. I gave them one frame of honey and placed another full frame over the inner cover. I got rid (killed) the 4 frames of brood from the top box. My guess is that there were not enough bees to care for the brood. The brood was dried, some deformed, some with heads partly out, tongues out. No slimy matchstick though. And plenty of deformed live bees (no wings).

Then we gassed them all (with oxalic acid). I think that went really well. By the time we hit the 3rd hive, it worked just like the descriptions. The first one went really fast and the second one shot out a wad of crystals (did it get plugged?). George has more specific details.

Anyway, we will repeat on monday.

Thanks everyone for all the input. It will be amazing if that weak hive makes it, but I haven't given up yet. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Michael Bush]

I would give the frozen brood combs to the strongest hive to clean out because I don't think the weak one has the workforce to do the job.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I would give the weak hive a couple of frames of brood from the strong hives.

[Axtmann]

I wouldn’t give them sealed brood from the strong hive the disaster will start again but that’s up to you.

The strong hive has the same problem and will crash in a few months. I would say around July if you don’t believe me make a note on you calendar and let me know that I was wrong (I know I’m not wrong).

If the strong hive has today approx 200 mites 6 more brood circles will give them at least 7500 mites and that’s the end of July. The end of August they would have up to 20 000 mites (without any treatment) and no colony can handle that.

The only way to make a colony stronger in this case is give them young bees (shake them) from an other colony and vaporize the same day before the transported mites can go in the cells from the weak hive.
The only way to help is vaporize the strong hive (with the lots of mites) several times 3 or 4 days apart to kill all hatching mites or destroy the brood, vaporize and start mite free.