Russian Bees

[Flewster]

I plan on starting several hives next year and this site has been GREAT. I was thinking of buying Russian bees and was wondering if anyone has them and how good are they really.......What bee is the best to start with???

Wayne Flewelling, JR.

[clintonbemrose]

If this is the first time for you keeping bees I would suggest starting out with Italian bees. The reason is they are kept by more beekeepers and if you have problems you have a wider number of keepers to get advice from. The russian bees and other types have diferent quirks as to handleing and are a little harder to work with. You can always re-queen a hive with a russian after you have learned with a much simpler bee.
Clint


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Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan

[txbeeguy]

I tend to agree with Clint; I think for starting out brand new, I'd recommend Italians too. They're still our best "all round" bee - especially for beginning beekeeping. They will tend to be a more consistent performer and more even temperament and provide a more reliable comparison between hives (weak hive verses strong hive and healthy hive verses a stressed hive, etc.).
The Russians provide great hope for chemical free Varroa mite resistance (via genetics) but they have not been around long enough to have very uniform characteristics bread into them. Due to the high variability of several natural traits, this would make for difficult times for a new beekeeper without the basic experience of say, Italians, on which to make judgments. I'd say, go with Italians for the first couple of years and treat with mite strips if necessary and learn what to expect from normal bees. As Clint said, you can always re-queen at some later date if you decided you want to try a different race.

[BjornBee]

To piggyback on the txbeeguy comments, is there still the hope that russians will be the mite tolerant bee as hyped up a few years back?
Several years ago thats all you heard, russian this and russian that. Now you don't hear alot. Genetic selection can be achieved with any strain, and so I'm asking is the russian strain still the hope it once was? And if it is, whats taking so long? Anyone have any recent information or posts to shed some light?

I'll use this forum as an example. Thousands of posts on small cell, FGMO, and essential oils. Not alot on russians. I assume it would be for nothing if the russians could solve this problem??? Or are others saying they help a little but not the silver bullet?
Whats the scoop?

[txbeeguy]

BjornBee,
I'm certainly no soothsayer so there is not any hope on my end to be able to tell the future. I can, however, offer an educated guess as to how this honeybee/Varroa mite problem will play out in America (long term). I draw upon my knowledge of the Russian homeland and how their bees have survived. I can only guess there will be a similar and parallel happenstance in the U.S.
First off, let me refer you to the historical story of Br. Adam and his development of the Buckfast bee. In a 'nutshell' his story is more-or-less proof of the type of thing that also happened in the far eastern region of Russia with the Varroa mite problem (only, on an accelerated basis). The abbey's honey production collapsed in the early 20th century due to their hives dieing off very rapidly. There were however, a few colonies that survived this onslaught of tracheal mites. Br. Adam isolated these colonies that survived and identified the genetic marker within those bees that survived and so began his almost century long process of the Buckfast honeybee development. Here is the slight difference between the pressures of "natural selection" in England verses the process that has happened in Russia: you have the story of ONE MAN taking a most active role in continuing the development of a strain of honeybees. Br. Adam continued his gathering of differing honeybee genetics throughout the world and selecting for good, positive traits (gentleness, high honey production, low swarming, etc., etc.). [As a side note, he was awarded a Doctor of Science (PhD) from Sweden and knighted by the queen of England - OBE, Order of the British Empire]. Thus, the gene for tracheal mite resistance was identified and made widespread in the Buckfast honeybee - all within the relative short period of less than one century.

In the Primorsky Kry region of Russia (an area close to where Varroa mites first made their appearance) the same 'natural selection' pressures where occurring on Apis m. that were introduced to the region via the Trans-Siberian railroad from western Russia in roughly the same time period as Br. Adam was fighting his fight with tracheal mites in southwestern England. BUT there was no equivalent Russian "Br. Adam" in this far eastern Pacific region of Russia to incorporate the Varroa mite resistance genetics with the other positive traits that we consider desirable. Thus the Russian honeybees were pretty much left to develop on their own - obviously finding ways to survive the Varroa mites but not necessarily developing low swarming behavior or high honey production traits or even, gentleness. (etc.).
The incorporation of good, positive traits into the so called "Russian" bees only began about five or six years ago when the USDA first brought them to America. This is a VERY short time to try to both maintain the Varroa mite resistance genetics AND incorporate other positive traits in a strain of basically, wild honeybees. Thus, it's no surprise (at least to me) to see both positive reports AND negative reports on the "Russian" honeybee.

My guess as to the future: Since no one has developed a Varroa resistant "superbee" (a Varroa resistant version of the Buckfast bee, if you will), what will happen naturally, over time, is that the ONE trait of the Russian bees that was most sought after (i.e., the natural Varroa resistance) will, in fact, be slowly incorporated into other strains of honeybees present in America. This seems to be the way that nature works; I'm not sure that the so called "Russian honeybee" will ever be a very popular race of bee, in and of itself, for honey production in America. But if it serves to loan it's Varroa mite resistance genetics to other races, then it will have accomplished something very positive; it's the gene(s) you're after, not necessarily the whole bee.
Just like the basic Buckfast trachael mite resistant bee is from Italian stock, the Russian Varroa mite resistant bee is from Caucasian stock. So it's not really a different or unknown race to American beekeepers, it just happens to be the carrier of a highly desired trait. Thus, in America in 100 years, it would not surprise me if "Russian" bees are unheard of...BUT our honeybees will be resistant to the Varroa mite. This is about the same period of time that the present Russian Apis m. have been exposed to Varroa in Primorsky Kry and have survived.

[Curry]

Txbeeguy did a great job summarizing the history of Russians bees... and maybe I can help with my experience with them.

I purchased Russian queens 4 years ago and decided I would put them to the test- not treat with chemicals even if it meant their death. I've yet to lose any of my Russian hives due to mites (I've lost a few to other normal reasons however). I'm up to 60 hives now, almost all Russians, and this last year I put them all on screened bottom boards. The sbb's enable me to check the 24 hour mite drop easily (Brushy Mountain sells them with a white plastic slip sheet that makes it real easy). I spot checked several hives yesterday and was only getting 2 or 3 mites per 24 hours. Some hives will occationally get more, but never enough to kill them off. When the queen stops laying, the mites can no longer reproduce and most die off. Anyway, Russians+sbb's means I will never have to treat with chemicals which saves me $ and time, and gives me good piece of mind knowing my honey is chemical free. Their honey production is consistent with other lines, and they overwinter better (they need less honey, and survive better). I have a couple of NWC, Buckfast, and Italian, but only until I can requeen with Russian. I trust natural selection to breed the best bee- us humans sometimes mess them up (making them docile may not be the best thing for the bee). Dogs are a good example of how man has bred certain looks or traits into them, but almost always at a cost. I say don't be afraid to try Russians- they are probably easier to have for the reasons already given.

[WineMan]

I tend to be in the camp of steering someone away from Russians as their first bee. At least I wouldnt start with all Russians but maybe a couple Italians, NWC's, etc.

To me anyway there seems to be a wide range of Russians available when it comes to purchasing production queens. Some Russian queens seem to have better mating outcomes with some domestic drone stock than others. Ive purchased some decent russians which were mated to typical italian stock. Ive also heard of very poor matings of russian queens to american buckfast. Most russians which I have raised did not mix well with my drones (virtually no italians). Thats not necessarily uncommon in general either.....Brother Adam found many first crosses to have little or no economic value while the next and subsequent generations allowed for the desirable characteristics to be more fully developed.

On the positive side from what I have seen colonies headed by russian queens tend to have very low mite counts in the early stages. Russians arent the only bees that have that trait but it would seem to suggest that the mite resistance/tolerance trait can be fairly readily passed on by them. Whereas it seems to take more of mans intervention in selection and mating pressure to produce it in other stocks (Szabo). Other positives include a high level of hygenic behavior in breeder stock which seems to also pass readily to first generation. And also very low levels of tracheal mites.

I cant say alot about russians in the long term. Virtually all of mine have crashed from other issues within 12-16 months. Some of those have had real high mite loads at that point but I would suspect it was a combination of many stresses and not just varroa.

We will have to see what happens in subsequent generations and as more of the 70 or so breeder lines are tested and released.

[greenbeekeeping]

HI there. I would agree with the others that say not to start with the russians. We have a few hives of russian bees and they can be quite nasty at times. We have been out working the garden at about 30 feet or more from there hive and had to retreat several times this year. I think that I am going to move them to another yard next year. I would recommend cordovans. I have several of the cordovan colonies and they are very gentle to work with.

[Kurt Bower]

Curry:
Since you are having good results from your Russian stock it would be of great interest to know from where you are getting your queens?

Thanks, Kurt

[Clayton]

I would recommend caucasian bees to a begginer.

[txbeeguy]

Caucasians are good. Clayton's on the mark here, with a good recommendation. They tend to be even more gentle than Italians and still very good honey producers.

In fact, I mostly have Caucasians now, myself. The only reason I first suggested Italians, is that I believe that finding an Italian Queen is much easier than trying to find a Caucasian queen - AND I know beginner beekeepers spend a whole lot of time looking for that queen bee!

[Clayton]

That is one of negative points, if it is one. I have never really relied on color so much to find queens. But I still would recommend caucasians as the little extra practice finding a dark queen will be good for a begginer http://www.beesource.com/ubb/wink.gif I'm rather thinking a begginer may spend a lot of time looking for queens no matter the color. I think the with the gentlness and confidence they gain from a good caucasian bee, it would make a good spring board for other black type bees such as russians.........I wonder why such a lack of interest in the caucasian be in the US? It really is a good bee!

Clay

[Curry]

Kurt-
I purchased my Russians from Sharon Wydel at Bees and Trees (West Plains, MO). They use to go down every year to south-east Louisiana to pick up bees, but this last year they wouldn't sell any 'cause honey is so high. So, they scrambled to find queens and I got Russians from Strachan out in California. I also breed my own queens from the original line that I got in 2000 since I know they are mite resistant.

Interesting that so many are recommending caucasion... according to the other thread about russians- they are caucasion. Just a mite resistant caucasion. To me, not being concerned with mites and good overwintering are top priority. I can see how others may be concerned with aggressiveness, etc., so it just depends on what you value in a bee.

[hoosierhiver]

as already mentioned,i've found that just buying "a russian" doesn't mean you are guarenteed any substantial mite resistance,a few i've recieved(i've tried several sources),look suspiciously like italians.i've taken a liking to the russian/caucasian survivor stock from Olympic wilderness apiaries.i think they are more in line with the "mite resistant russians" that were hyped in the past few years.