Packages on Permacomb

[MGBee]

I started 2 packages on Permacomb 3 weeks ago. Both on SBB. Both fed 1:1 continuously since then. Both are queenright-- inspected yesterday and saw the marked queens. We're toward the end of our flow here, maybe 2 weeks max left.

Capped brood is very spotty in both. It is difficult to see eggs or larvae due to white color of Permacomb so maybe I'm misjudging actual laying pattern.

I thought that Permacomb would give these packages a quicker start, but compared to the package I started on Wired foundation 5 weeks ago, I am disappointed with results thus far. Those of you using Permacomb, what do you think?

Also, both Permacomb colonies are building bridge comb like crazy. Do you clean this at every chance or let them be?

Regards to you all.

MGBee

[dickm]

I bought 2 supers of permacomb and am sorry I did. I hived one package in 2 medium supers. One was permacomb the other was wax. They totally ignored the plastic and drew out the wax. Then I tried them for honey supers and it takes a long time to get them to use them.
They make bridgecomb because the frames are shorter than normal. I solved this by cutting 3/4" or so off the bottom of the supers and trimming the tabs off the plastic.(I painted them with polka dots because they are now an odd size.) I tried to extract some honey from a few last year and you cannot uncap them in the normal way. At least some of them wiil be capped so close to the comb that a hot knife will melt the plastic. There's a special tool called a honey hackler that works. It's slow.(search this site). For honey, don't even think of using 10 frames in a super; 9 will give you a higher capping. Since you probably bought them 10 at a time that gives you one to throw away. If you try to use it mixed with some wood frames the space is wrong because the top bar is narrower. I solved this by adding a couple of screws to the sides of the permacomb. It remains too short and will waste some comb built on the bottom of it each time you move it.
In the time I spent dicking around with them, the bees could have drawn out wax. The extra cost of the permacomb could have gone into sugar to get them started.
I'm probably making myself an outcast because many people on this site love them and have invested heavily. I've tried everything and will stick with the old fashioned way of wax, wires and wood.
I'm sure they work if the bees have no choice; if all your frames are the same.

Good luck,

Dickm

[Oxankle]

Dick:

I also bought two supers of PC to try. I sprayed the first 9 combs with thick sugar water and Honey-bee-healthy and installed the super on a strong hive. The honey flow is about over and they have worked everything but the PC. I pulled them down to one empty super--the PC. Now we will see if they use the PC or just swarm.

They were building some bridge comb, but I ignored it in hopes they would just go on and use the PC.

It may be that the bees simply have to be forced to use the PC and that once used it will be readily accepted for re-use.

I agree On the 9-frame issue. I cannot see why the makers do not offer a 9-frame purchase option. I do think that a cold knife would be a possibility for uncapping.

I will have another look this afternooon. If they are building queen cells I will have some PC for sale.
Ox

[MGBee]

Dick:

These two colonies have no choice but Permacomb, but I am worried that they may not build up quickly enough to save themselves and I have no established colonies to join them with.

I sprayed with 1:1 and Hbh on frames before installing packages. thought the uptake may be quicker, but no luck.

Seems to me that bees "need" to build comb. Just nature's way. What about it Permacomb users?

I thought that maybe since packages were delayed from Ga. due to weather, that this may have had some impact on the quality of the queens as well. Anybody out there with more that average problems with queens purchased this year?

Regards,
MGBee

[Michael Bush]

I have a lot of PermaComb. I dipped all of mine in wax, not for acceptance, but to make the cells smaller. I have had no acceptance problems whatsoever.

The problem of the burr is partly because of the size being too small, but they burr the top too because there is not "top bar" really. Just cells all the way to the top. CC Miller observed long ago that a thicker top bar gets less burr comb.

I haven't really used them in supers, just in brood chambers to regress the bees, so I can't say how they are to extract etc.

I'd have to say I love them. The bees fill in the gaps and it's like one giant comb and the queen lays it up nicely for me.

I started a package last spring on wax dipped PermaComb that I split four times and raised several queens off of. It is still one of my strongest hives.

I think the PermaComb gave a big head start.

But, admittedly, mine is all wax coated (by me).

[genecot]

i recently started 3 packages. 2 I started on permacomb 1 on wired foundation. the 2 permacomb package queens have not laid eggs although both are still in the hive. the third started on wax foundation has a full frame of brood.

[Michael Bush]

I think you have to realize too that any plastic once it's been worked is readily accepted by the bees. New plastic is not so readily accepted.

[jgd]

MB
How and at what temp. do you dip the PC? I'm afraid I'll melt the plastic.

[dp]

I've got 4 pkgs. on PC. I'm having the same problem too. 1 hive is doing really good. 1 hive is so-so. The other 2 I'm concerned about. I think it will be time soon to start thinking about plans to get these hives through the winter if they don't biuld up.

[Oxankle]

After my first post on this thread I went back to the bee yard and looked in on my PC super. The super above it is almost full, the bees are beginning to whiten the comb.

The permacomb in the super below is beginning to show white wax where the bees are drawing out the cell walls.

Looks as if I am going to have at least one super of honey in PermaComb.
Ox

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Capped brood is very spotty in both. It is difficult to see eggs or larvae due to white color of Permacomb so maybe I'm misjudging actual laying pattern.

It is VERY hard to see eggs in new PC, I will look more for a band of pollen and honey and come back next week to insure the brood is being capped.

>Capped brood is very spotty in both. It is difficult to see eggs or larvae due to white color of Permacomb so maybe I'm misjudging actual laying pattern.

Spotty laying pattern can not be blamed on PC (IMHO), the bees will cull out eggs and the queen will pass up cells that are not polished and ready to her liking. I've seen it and I've seen them straighten out and really get rolling.

>I thought that Permacomb would give these packages a quicker start, but compared to the package I started on Wired foundation 5 weeks ago, I am disappointed with results thus far. Those of you using Permacomb, what do you think?

Judge it at the same five week time and see. I have had swarms, (biguns) that filled and overflowed two mediums in two weeks, and I have had five frame splits that had not filled two medium nuc boxes in a month. All the qualities that make a good colony good is the same whether on wax or PC. I had Italians from Wilbanks two years ago that never filled the first deep, I doubt that they would have done any better on drawn foundation.

>Also, both Permacomb colonies are building bridge comb like crazy. Do you clean this at every chance or let them be?

I used to be annoyed at the bridge building until I realized that they need to build it and they will every chance they get, and for good reasons. First of all they have a need to make wax. I let them by useing all nine frame spacing so they can build the cells out farther. Second, the bridging simulates the more natural conditions of a ferral hive with the long continious combs running vertically. And third it creates a bridge for the queen to traverse from frame to frame without blocking her movement. Forth, they need a place to build drone cells and between the frames (boxes) is a good place for that. It also makes it easy to see if you have a varroa problem, when you split the boxes apart you will see varroa on the drone larva easily.

>They make bridgecomb because the frames are shorter than normal. I solved this by cutting 3/4" or so off the bottom of the supers

I trimmed some of my boxes too, I don't recomend it, with the bees bridging, they take care of the percieved problem themselves.

>I have a lot of PermaComb. I dipped all of mine in wax, not for acceptance, but to make the cells smaller. I have had no acceptance problems whatsoever.

I have over forty hives that are totaly PC, and about five that are mixed. I have not dipped my PC and I have no problem with acceptance either.

>I'd have to say I love them. The bees fill in the gaps and it's like one giant comb and the queen lays it up nicely for me.

My findings too.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Last Wednesday I did a colony removal from a garage. It took three mediums to hold all the bees. I have already moved them up to the yard at the farm last weekend. Monday I looked through it for signs of the queen. What I found is; in the bottom med I placed four frames of the removed comb, it has been worked and attached to the frames and some rubberbands removed. The brood is hatching out, there were no eggs or larva removed from the garage. Interspaced between them I placed three of the 4.9 plastic foundation that I cut down into medium and it has been worked and drawn out about one fourth perfectly. I finished filling the outside two frames with PC and one of those was about one third filled with honey/nectar. In the box above (PC) the bees were drawing the center seven frames, and in the third box the center four frames were being worked.

I would have expected the wax to be the first comb to be worked and layed up, but they were working all the frames of all types. I saw no sign of the queen but I did not expect to either as I had only five queen cells in the colony removed from the garage. One looked open and the other four were being torn down or waxed over.

I generally do not mix types of foundation/frames, opting for all PC hives, but this shows that there are exceptions to all theories. Bees do the darndest things.

[MGBee]

All,

Thanks for your feedback. I still like the Permacomb due to hive beetle, wax moth, and my desire to keep accumulated chemical residue out of drawn comb.

My 2 packages are on double mediums with 10 frame spacing in both.

Bill -- Would you recommend that I decrease frame spacing to 9 in brood chambers now? Will this cause a problem? Also, the bees seem to want to work from the top medium down. I reversed one of the colonies this weekend and noticed yesterday that the bees have moved back to the top chamber.

DP,
Did you get your packages from Wilbanks? They delayed my packages by a week this year due to weather problems in the yard. I know them to be a reputable supplier, but I am wondering if they might have had problems this year.

I am back new with bees this year after a 30 year absence so maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. Somehow though, it seems to matter more this time than when I was younger.

At any rate, you folks are the best resource this returned "newbie" knows of.

Regards,
MG

[Michael Bush]

PermaComb melts at 220 degrees. This allows you to boil the comb if you want. In order to get the wax to run off I had to get the PermaComb about 200 degrees or at least hot enough to melt the wax. Otherwise it clumped up in the cells.

I will warn you this is a very messy procedure and will get wax all over you, your clothes, your shoes etc.

I did it outside and still took flack for the bits of wax that would fall off of me later. I used a table that I knew would be coated in wax when I was done. In fact I used a sheet of plywood attached to the legs from a folding table.

I put a piece of cardboard on the rack in the oven so the metal wouldn't transfer heat to fast and melt the PermaComb. I put an oven thermometer in the oven that shows the actual temperature in case the oven's internal thermostat is not correct. I set the oven at 200 degrees F and I put a piece of foundation on the PermaComb so I could see when it melted and ran down into the comb. I was careful not to let the actual oven temperature exceed 200 degrees (220 is the max rating for PermaComb). I checked it every five minutes or so.
I melted the wax in a large electric Roaster that has a double boiler built in to it, so the wax doesn't exceed 212 because the water boils at that temperature. After dunking in the wax I let the wax run out of one side and then the other and then while it was still hot, I rapped it soundly flat on the table, first one side and then on the other. If it still seems too thick, you can put it back in the 200 degree F oven until it melts in the combs, but it is much more difficult to get it to come out after it sticks and clumps up. It's important that everything is hot enough without being over 220 degress F.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Bill -- Would you recommend that I decrease frame spacing to 9 in brood chambers now? Will this cause a problem? Also, the bees seem to want to work from the top medium down. I reversed one of the colonies this weekend and noticed yesterday that the bees have moved back to the top chamber.

I went with all nine frame spacing on the recomendation of John Seets the distributer of PC. I see it as reducing congestion in the brood area letting them travel through it more freely. In the super area it allows them to draw the cells out further making for easier uncapping and less equipment. I think I get as much in nine frames of honey as ten when spaced at nine.

As far as changing over now in the brood I see no problem. Moving a frame up they have started will also entice them to move up. I have seen some of mine chimney up the center ignoring the outside one or two frames. When I see this I stop adding boxes ans make them fill out more. It appears that some queens like to go verticle no matter what you do.

I wouldn't be reversing with only two medium boxes. When they bridge the two boxes together they are making a solid sheet of comb and the queen will traverse from top to bottom. I see mine do this with four medium boxes. The only time I reverse is in the early spring when there is nothing in the bottom boxes.

I really think that your concerns lie with your stock and what they are predisposed to do. With all the swarms I pick up and colonys that I have, I see a bit of everything. Some are gang busters and some are dissapointing. When you have only a few colonys you feel the dissapointment more so than if you have a big yard full. The one thing that remains true is that a vigorious queen in a strong colony during the flow will go great guns, a poor queen on a so-so colony will leave you with a lot of apprehension. This is true on any type of foundation or comb.

[MGBee]

Bill,
Thanks for your replies. I'll keep the feed on these colonies, let them do their thing and see what happens.

I will go to 9 frame spacing however.

Regards,
MG

[Michael Bush]

Actually in the brood chamber I am doing 11 frame spacing on a lot of them. I don't like 9 frame. Too much honey comb sticking out and brood indented from that surface.

But then I've got small cell bees and wax coated, small cell PermaComb.

[MGBee]

Bill/Michael:

Bill says 9 frame brood, Michael says 11 frame brood, I now have 10 frame brood-- what's a feller to do?

Which one of you grows the tallest corn? The answer may help in my decision.

Thanks,
MG

[Michael Bush]

I have a lot of them at 10 frames.

Here's the theories:

9 frame
Pros:
Less congestion.
Standardization of supers and brood chambers because they all have 9 frame spacers.
Cons:
Protruding comb where the honey is stored and recessed where the brood is. This makes a very uneven surface for every comb. This makes combs less interchanable in the brood nest because the bees decide to store the honey (which always protrudes more in 9 frame spacing) in odd places that in one place almost meets some brood comb on the other face. Now you move that frame where protruding honey is opposite it and the two faces are squished against each other. Or the protruding hone from an outside frame, when move to face a brood frame may block the emerging brood.
One less frame of brood in the box.

10 frame
Pros:
More even comb faces.
One more frame of brood in the box.
Interchanability of the combs in the brood nest.

Cons:
The nine frame theory is more congestion. Since the bees tend to fill every nook and cranny with something, I don't see much diference here.

11 frames
Pros:
Two more frames of brood in the box.
Small cell bees take to this well.
Cons:
No spacers available.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>-- what's a feller to do?

I won't tell you what to do, I will tell you what I have done and what the results are.

The outside frames when drawn out are too thick to turn in against the other frames, so they usually stay on the outside, but the outside frames are always last to be drawn out anyway. When I come across a frame that is too thick to turn against another and I want it there, I just mush the cappings a little and the girls take care of it.

I once put a frame into my observation hive that was too thick and watched them reduce the comb against the glass to the proper spacing. They tunneled to the brood releasing them and removed the cappings and redistributed the honey. It was interesting to watch even though it was not an efficiant use of their energies.

I don't think that ten frame spacing with PC is a bad thing, perhaps it is a good thing with true small cell bees. Mine being all 5.1 isn't that much different in size but I still want more space for traffic to navigate. As well as my listed reasons above I want to keep the frames lined up vertically all through the hive to form that continuious sheet of comb from top to bottom.

I think corn grows taller in Nebraska, Kansas is the wheat state.

[dp]

MGBee,I got my pkgs. from Spell Bee. They were 3 pounds. All were installed on March 25th. If you remember, during that time in our area we had about a week of warm weather.
I'll check these hives in a day or two and let you know what I find. It sound like your bees are doing the same thing as mine.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

> All were installed on March 25th.

March? That's nine weeks, you should have four mediums of PC filled by now.

[odfrank]

I don't want to live in a plastic house
I don't want to wear plastic shoes
I don't want to sleep on plastic sheets
I don't want to raise my babies in a plastic bed
And all the different kinds of plastic bee hive parts that I have tryed in my 34 years of beekeeping tell me:

BEES DON'T WANT TO EITHER !!!!!

[BULLSEYE BILL]

.

[This message has been edited by BULLSEYE BILL (edited June 03, 2004).]

[Scotty]

I have to disagree (*GASP*) about the plastic frames that you are all talking about. I have only been keeping bees for 31 days (*GASP AGAIN*) but my bees have filled 4 1/2 frames of plastic by now. Maybe I'm just lucky? Here's a pic: http://members.cox.net/scott.sullivan/images/week_four/P6010050.jpg

[dp]

Well here's the way a couple of my hives are with the PC. #1-Two frames of brood in the middle of the first super. Two frames of brood in the middle of the second super. #2-3 frames of brood in the first super. 4 frames of brood in the middle of the second super. Each hive has plenty of pollen and honey. They are just slow to build up.