Newbies starting out next spring

[Michael Bush]

IÂ’ve thought about this and IÂ’m sure a lot of people will disagree but IÂ’m going to give my advice on how I would start beekeeping if I were a beginner doing it over again. This is what I wish I had done the first time.

First you have to decide how to get some bees. ItÂ’s very difficult to get them from a tree or a neighborÂ’s house when you really donÂ’t know anything about them. This is really an advanced undertaking. That said, I admit that is exactly what I did. I took them out of houses and trees and bought some queens. But I really didnÂ’t do so well at it and I got stung a lot. So all in all I donÂ’t think it was that good for the bees, although it was educational for me.

If you have local beekeepers you may be able to get a nuc or some frames of brood etc. The downside to this is they are probably on Deep frames (9 ¼” frames that go in a 9 5/8” box). I’m not going to recommend deeps.

You can order package bees. I used to get them through the mail, but lately that has gotten more and more expensive. Most locations you can find a bee supply place that brings in a truckload of package bees in the spring. If you find a local bee club or association they will probably be able to advise you on this.

Assuming you are going to buy a package of bees, the next decision is what race. I hate to not have an opinion, but I really havenÂ’t seen a race of honeybees I didnÂ’t like. Well, I did have some really mean ones once, but they were the same breed I had been raising for decades. I will recommend you get something that is not a hybrid and can be open bred by you with good results. Caucasian, Italian, Cordovan (Italian), Russian and Carniolans are all fine. Take your pick.

Protective equipment. Minimum equipment is a veil and a smoker. I would recommend a jacket with a veil instead of the veil and a full suit for those times you need extra security. Also a spray bottle of light syrup (2 parts water 1 part sugar by volume), and an Italian Hive tool (Brushy Mt.). A bee brush. A hair clip queen catcher. A nice frame grip is nice, but not necessary.

Now that you have lined up a source for bees, you need to make some choices on equipment. I’m going to recommend you use all the same size frames for everything, and since medium frames seem like the best compromise for everything, I’m going to recommend mediums for everything. That includes comb honey, extracted honey, brood etc. These are sometimes called Illinois supers. Or ¾ supers. Or Medium supers. They are 6 5/8” deep with 6 ¼” frames.

Reasons for all the same size: You can bait up supers with brood, or other frames from the brood chamber. You can pull honey from the supers for starting nucs etc. You can run an unlimited brood nest and if the queen lays in the supers, you just pull those frames of brood and swap them for some honey from the brood chamber. Different sizes are really a deterrent to good management of the hive.

Reasons for mediums instead of deeps: A 10 frame deep full of honey can weigh up to 90 pounds. A medium full of honey can weigh up to 60 pounds. ‘Nuff said.

Now that we have a frame size you need to pick a hive size. Standard is 10 frames. There is much to be said for being standard. On the other hand, there is much to be said for lighter. The 8-frame equipment from Brushy Mt. is very nice for making less work. You need to choose whether you want lighter boxes or standard sized ones.

Frames, foundation, cell size etc. You need to decide if you want plastic foundation, plastic frames, fully drawn plastic comb, etc. and what size you want the foundation. I would recommend just to buy small cell or PermaComb. If you want to use wax, buy small cell wax from Dadant. I donÂ’t think I would buy the plastic small cell foundation until you have some established hives on 4.9mm foundation and want to do some splits or add more comb to the brood nest then you can get small cell plastic foundation from Dadant. If you want to not have to build frames, not have to wait for the bees to draw it and never have to worry about wax moths or Small Hive Beetles then buy PermaComb. I personally heat the PermaComb to 200 degrees F and dip it in 212 degree F beeswax and shake off all the excess wax. This results in 4.95mm cells and seems to handle all my mite problems. For now donÂ’t worry about regression or all that complex sounding stuff, but just stick with natural sized foundation.

Now that weÂ’ve made all these decisions, hereÂ’s the order IÂ’d get things in.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but I would buy an observation hive. You can buy a nice four frame “Von Frisch” hive from Brushy Mt. It holds four medium frames (remember we want all the frames the same). You do have to make the hookup for the tube yourself but everything else is pretty much done for you. To hook up the tube I take a 1” long 1” diameter galvanized water pipe nipple and a 1 1/8” hole saw (that goes in a drill to make a 1 1/8” hole) and glue a piece of pine in the end of the Von Frisch hive and drill the 1 1/8” hole and use some channel locks or a pipe wrench to screw in the pipe nipple. Get some 1 ¼” tubing and attach it with a hose clamp. Cut a 1 x 4 to fit in under your window and another that fits under your storm window and drill a 1 3/8” hole in both of those so that with the windows closed they line up. Thread the 1 ¼” tubing (a sump pump kit works well) out through the window.

Also I would put a very small screw or a staple in back and on the door in the frame rest area to hold the frame out at the correct space. I seem to always be carrying the hive back in from outside and jostle the frames and they slide to one side and mess up the beespace.

Make some frames (or wax dip some PermaComb) and put the small cell foundation in it. Put these in the observation hive. Cut some Black cloth so that doubled up and folded over the hive it covers both sides to the floor. This is a privacy curtain.

When the bees outgrow the observation hive you will need somewhere to put them, so lets build a medium nuc. You can buy a double medium nuc from Brushy Mt. that comes with a cover, inner cover and bottom board and two medium five-frame boxes. This will make a good start for when they outgrow the observation hive. Put it together so itÂ’s ready before you get the bees. Now you get to wait for spring.

Come spring put the bees in the observation hive. I assume this is a package, so you need to spray the bees with sugar syrup waiting periodically and spraying again until they lose interest in eating it off of the screen wire. Take the bees and the observation hive outside near the entrance to the observation hive. Cover the exit to the hive with a piece of cloth and a thick hair tie rubber band (they are easier to handle) Do the same with the outside entrance to the tube and the other end of the tube in the house. Lay the observation hive flat on itÂ’s side on the ground and open the door. Put on your protective equipment. Pry open the lid to the box and carefully fish out the queen cage and set it aside. Now fish out the can and shake the bees off of it into the observation hive. Hit the box sharply on the ground to dislodge the cluster and then flip it upside down and shake it sharply to dump the bees into the observation hive. Hit the box sharply on its side to knock the remaining bees to one end then dump them in. If there are still 20 bees or so in the box, donÂ’t worry about it. If there are hundreds of bees in the box, repeat the steps until there are only a few.

Light your smoker. Carefully pry the staple off of the queen cage, being careful not to open the screen and let out the queen. Put the queen cage over a cluster of the bees and holding the screen side down, open the screen and put the cage close to the bees watching for the queen to walk out. (difficult, I know). If you didnÂ’t see her and you didnÂ’t see her fly off and you didnÂ’t see her go in, then we may have to keep an eye out for a while. Assuming she went in, use the smoker to drive the bees away from the door frame so they donÂ’t get squashed and close the door (squashing some stubborn and indecisive bees, but hopefully not too many.) Now brush all of the bees off of the outside of the hive and take it in the house. Holding the hose up to the pipe, pull off the cloth from both pieces and slide the hose on and clamp it (the clamp has to be on the hose before you do this.

You now have an observation hive. Fill a quart jar with 2:1 syrup (2 parts sugar to 1 part water by volume) and feed them. Now go take the cloth off of the outside of the tube.

If you didnÂ’t see the queen go in, watch outside for any clusters of bees on the ground or bushes. If you see any, look carefully to see if there is a queen. If so, catch her with the hair clip catcher and put her at the tube entrance and see if sheÂ’ll go in. If she doesnÂ’t, you may have to take the hive outside and do it all again, but probably you now have a queen in the hive.

Keep feeding them and watch them. Count the days until the queen starts to lay eggs. (usually at least three or four days) and how many days until they eggs hatch and how many days until you see capped brood and how many days until you see emergence. The hive will build slower at first but once bees start emerging the population will explode. When they have pretty much filled the hive with honey, brood and pollen you need to move three frames and the queen to one 5-frame nuc box. Feed the nuc and keep feeding the observation hive. Try to be sure that the frame you leave in the observation hive has eggs. Now you get to watch them raise a queen. By the time the queen in the observation hive is laying, all of the brood will have emerged. The Observation hive will be struggling again to get going, but the five frame nuc will quickly fill up and when four ½ frames of it are full, add the next 5 frame box and order four medium boxes and enough frames for them and a screened bottom board and an inner and outer cover or a migratory cover. When the two five frames nucs are full put the queen and all but two frames in a ten-frame box. Make sure one of those frames has eggs and open brood and the other has pollen and honey. Put those two in one of the five frame boxes with a top and bottom and let it raise a queen.

Now you have one hive, one nuc, and one observation hive. If you need a queen you can unite the nuc with the hive, or pull a frame of brood for the nuc to raise one or pull a frame of brood for the observation hive to raise one. You get to watch in detail what is going on with the bees in the observation hive. You can see pollen coming in, you can see nectar coming in, you can see when they are being robbed, you can see if they are having any problems. You can watch the queen lay. You can practice finding the queen without disturbing the hive.

As the observation hive gets too strong you can pull frames out and put them in regular hive. As the nuc gets too strong you can pull frames and put them in the regular hive. You can replace them with undrawn foundation. If you only want one hive, you have one and some spare parts to fix it. If you want another hive, just let the nuc grow and put it in a regular hive too. Then start another nuc from some frames from the observation hive so you have two hives a nuc and an observation hive.

Of course if you wanted to start with more, you could put a package in the observation hive and a package in the hive at the same time. More redundancy.

[jimbee]

I would also strongly recommend the newbee find the local bee club and join and get to know his potential mentors.

[Dave W]

MR-Bee (Michael Bush),

Excellent, excellent, excellent!

Please dont stop here. This kind of comprehensive explicit commentary would be very useful on ALL areas of beekeeping. Like feeding, inspecting, supering, harvesting, medication, diseases, queen rearing, just to name a few.

This and all your efforts are always apprediated.
Thank you,
Dave W

[clintonbemrose]

I like what I read here. Others helping others. Thanks M.B. I like your style. And hope others will add constructivly.

Clint

------------------
Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan

[Michael Bush]

>Would you just write the **** book already? You know you want to. Stop teasing us and get with it.

My wife just said that this morning.

[A Devries]

Who needs a Mentor when they can have all of the differing opinons everyone here has to offer.
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif I'm so glad I found this board.
Albert

[This message has been edited by A Devries (edited July 31, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

I actually expected a lot of disagreement on my advice. Most people use deeps for brood and shallows or mediums for supers. I did for years.

The advice commonly given is that observation hives are too difficult for an inexperienced person. Anything is difficult for an inexperienced person, but where else will they get that kind of feedback?

You can feel free to disagree, but this is what I wish I had done from the begining. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Clayton]

I actually expected a lot of disagreement on my advice. Most people use deeps for brood and shallows or mediums for supers. I did for years.

reply:

Well thats cause I just got out of work :> ) Let me stir the pot a bit. M.B. is a proponent of mediums where I tend to like the deeps. Heres a few reasons why:

1.When one buys a nuc usually is deep frames
2.inspection time 30 frames instead of about 50 frames (ULBN)
3. If wiring less to construct, less boxes to build, less foundation to install, ect.

I guess my point is that there are disadvantages to both deeps and mediums. But I do agree that the concept here is important which is....having universal frames that are flexible.

Next thing, skip the frame grips unless you have a weak grip and get your self a half dozen hive tools and spray them with a nice bright color so you always have lots. Put one in the vehicle, couple in the honey house, with the bees suit.

Most everything else here M.B. says I like right down to the observation hive part. I'd recommend the top bar hive instead. The reason would rather not recommend the ob hives is that the bees out grow them quickly and can be a hassle to some newbies that just don't have the skill or zeal that some of us have. Hmmm..now that I think about it I'm not sure I'd recommend either. Maybe best to get aquainted with langstroth???

Clay

[ChellesBees]

I don't know that I would do an observation hive the first year, I wasn't prepared for the time committment to begin with, my husband never would have allowed it in the house, and the rest of my bees are 5 miles away. I do wish I had known that I could go with all mediums though. Now that I have 10 deep supers drawn out, I hate to switch.
Anyone who has never had bees before might be hard pressed to locate wax and dip permacomb to reduce the size of it. Sounds much more complicated than it probably is, but more of a mess than a beginner might want to handle. I'm assuming you had problems with small plastic cell, but otherwise-that would have been my first choice. (haven't tried it yet)
One thing I would STRONGLY suggest is that any beginner start with two hives. Even with an observation hive, a nuc and a regular hive- it is kinda like comparing apples to oranges. For a beginner, to have two hives that started identical, side by side, is perhaps the easiest way to gauge the progress of the hives. To have the nuc and obsv. hive to supplement is most beneficial, but might be introducing too much to fast. I would add them the second year. One of the best lessons I learned the first year was to walk away and come back in three days. 9 times out of 10, whatever I thought the problem was, it had fixed itself. (lots of beginner's anxieties) and if I tried to rush things, I usually made them worse.

[Michael Bush]

The PermaComb was messy but didn't involve any need for beekeeping skills.

The plastic 4.9mm is beautiful. I would just hate to invest in it when the 5.4mm bees will not draw it to 4.9mm anyway. But I would use it after they are regressed with no second thoughts at all.

Two hives side by side are nice. Even three. But most people aren't ready for that kind of commitment at first. But it does give you a comparison so you can see what is normal and what is not.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

Yeah I am more inclined to agree with 3 hives. If one fails, you can split. If you buy your bees all at the same time from the same place, their genes are already probably similar.

I think starting with mediums is a great idea. But I agree with clayton, the standard way of doing things sure makes it hard on those who want to deviate from what is "normal".

understand my definition of normal does not necessarily equate to healthy.

Same can be said for those of use using top bar hives. Especially those that aren't langstroth width. How do you introduce a nuc to that? http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

I think as things go on, and in many years time, the standard won't be as standard but one standard way of doing things among a few standards. I guess we will see what happens in the coming years. It will depend on who successfully keeps their bees alive I am guessing.

[wishthecuttlefish]

Thanks for all the advice, M.B. and others. I am exactly that "newbie starting in the spring" that you are referring to.

Most of you advice I will be taking. I'm definately starting with two hives - all mediums.

I'm not sure that your suggestion to start with Permacomb is something I will go with as it is very expensive ($3.50 each last check) and seems too much of an investment for beginners. Perhaps when the SHB and the wax moths have ruined my comb then I'll switch.

So, what then do you recommend in terms of comb? RiteCell? Duragilt? Wired Wax?

I do intend to use some cut comb foundation for one or two supers, but what works best for the brood and extracting supers?

Thanks,
Kai Richardson

[Clayton]

I believe Micheal recommended using Dadants wax 4.9mm foundation but not worrying about it being drawn out correctly at first. I would recommend the same. This foundation is available in medium brood (no wires) so you will have to wire the frames. Which is no big deal. I show how to do this on my website here:
http://wave.prohosting.com/clay2720/4.9mm_comb_drawing.htm/wiring.txt

Clay

[Michael Bush]

Yes, I'd get the 4.9mm wax foundation from Dadant or one of the suppliers they sell it to, and just use it. Someday when you want to regress to 4.9mm bees you'll be a step or two ahead and the bees will have foundation closer to what they naturally build.

[ChellesBees]

I have carpal tunnel syndrome, so the last thing I would do is try to wire frames. I would go with the plastic cell (rite-cell) stuff, coated with wax. I don't like duraguilt, because if you slip and scrape the wax off the plastic sheet, the bees won't rebuild over that spot. When assembling the frames, rit-cell goes together really easy. It is a little more expensive, and makes things a little bit heavier, but when you are starting out, easy is good.
A note on assembling wood frames. After bending 50 of the first 55 nails I tried to put in assembling frames, I pulled out the drill gun, and with the smallest bit we had, (1/8 I think) I predrilled holes-two in each end of both top and bottom bars. Then coated nails with wood glue before I pounded them in. They have held up for three years now.

[Michael Bush]

If you just want easy and plastic, then you might as well just buy Pierco frames and you won't have to build frames.

I agree I don't care for wiring. It's too much time and too much work. But if you're using mediums and you only put the foundation in just before you put it in the hive, and you use split pins to hold the sides, you can get by without wiring. Of coures the 4.9mm only comes in deep, but you can cut it down to medium and if you want, you can cut 1/2" wide starter strips from the peices you cut off and use them for your honey supers for comb honey.

[Daisy]

Yes Micheal, please go on. I want to start mentoring another person in the spring and I just as well get them started on the right footing.

And Thanks.....

[Clayton]

Micheal,

I would still recomend wiring to begginers here. It is fine for the more experienced but I can picture the heartache of a newbee when all there work is ruined cause they used pins and the foundations warped and buckled. They then come back to the hives in 2 weeks and they have a mess with combs all array and the bees working brace combs, sideways stuck together, ect. This would especially apply to southern beekeepers where the temps soar. Out of concern for others I'd just hate to see that happen.

Clay

[Michael Bush]

It's true it will buckle pretty quickly in really hot weather. But as a newbie I had this problem with comb honey supers, which most beginners are using because of the cost and the lack of justification for an extractor. You have to change your mindset from thinking "I want all this done ahead of time." to, I'm not going to do it until I have to. Because if you put the foundation in too soon it will buckle badly. Maybe it's a bigger problem in the south, but I think it's a problem everywhere.

You can always use starter srips. I haven't had them buckle yet. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

If you start with the starter strips and after the hive is established on the 4.9mm starters, you put in the 4.9mm plastic you could still eliminate the wiring.

[Michael Bush]

Ok, I had the list of equipment for the bees (medium boxes, screened bottom boards etc.) How about a list for the beekeeper.

Here are some essentials:

A smoker (most any size will do for a hobbiest. The big ones are nice for a commercial undertaking).

A spray bottle with light syrup (2 parts water 1 part syrup)

I would prefer, if I only have one protective suit, to have a full coverall with a zip on veil. That way I can be pretty fearless of the bees. If you make them mad enough, long enough, they will still get in, but that would require quite a bit of time. If you have the money to spare, I'd buy a jacket with a zip on veil besides because it's easier to take on and off, cooler and handier. I like the hooded ones. I was paranoid at first, but I have three nylon outfits (one jacket and two coveralls) and have never been stung on the back of the head like I expected.

Some kind of hive tool. Any little flat bar will work. One of my all time favorites is a very old light cleaver (the blade is about 1 1/2" wide and 6" long) that I sharpened on the end. I can pry a box apart or scrape things. It doesn't pull nails well and if the prying is really heavy I do worry about breaking it. If you're going to buy one, I really like the Italian Hive tool from Brushy Mt. It's got a lift hook on one end and is light and long has a lot of leverage. My next favorite is Maxant's Frame Lifter hive tool. But I do like the Italian one better.

A bee brush. You can buy one, or if you hunt or have birds you can use a large feather. It has to be a nice stiff quill to do any good. You will need to brush bees off from time to time. In order to harvest, in order to do other manipulations. Shaking can work sometimes, but sometimes you just need a brush. Like when the bees are all clustering on the edge of the hive you can brush them off before you set the next box on top.

Nice to have:

These are nice, but not essential, but I don't think you will regret buying them.

Frame Perch. Several suppliers have these and they are nice. You hang it off the side of the hive and you can put four frames on it as you go through the hive. If you're looking for a queen that's enough that you can then start setting the remaing frames to the other side of the box without worrying too much about her jumping to the next frame and you have lots of room to work and don't have to set the frame on the ground.

Frame grip. I like these. They are very handy. If you use them gently enough, you can pry frames apart with them and lift it out more comfortably than trying to grab the ends of the bars with your gloved hands. I like the kind that are more rounded better. Some are very square metal and hurt your hand when you squeeze really hard. Some suppliers have both kinds and the good one is, of course, the more expensive one.

Trianular bee escpape. This is nice for harvesting or anytime you want the bees off the combs. If you set boxes of honey (with no brood) on top overnight will clear 90% of the bees out. You still have to brush the rest off. I haven't used any other bee escapes that worked as well. I don't like the little plastic bee escapes that go in the slot in the inner cover.

Tool box. You can put your tools in a five gallon bucket, but if you want a really nice toolbox, Brushy Mt. has one that can double as a swarm box, has a place for a hive tool, a frame grip, a smoker, a frame perch and room inside for odds and ends. It makes a nice stool too.

Manipulation cloth. I've seen a couple of suppliers who sell these. The Beeworks and Brushy Mt. have them. You could make one without too much trouble, but the idea is that you have a cloth that covers the top of the hive so that only about two frames are visible. This keeps the bees calmer while you work. I really don't use it often, but sometimes it's nice. If you have one of those viscious hives, nothing keeps them calm and if you have a really calm hive it's redundant, but for those hives that stay pretty calm for a while and then start getting excited (especially happens on a cloudy/rainy day) then this helps a lot.

Queen Catcher. The hair clip kind are the nicest ones I've seen you can pick up a queen without hurting her. You still have to be a little careful, but it is designed to not hurt her and to let the workers out. There are times you just need to know where she is while you rearrange things or do a split and then you can release her. This plus a marking tube and a paint pen and you can mark her too.

A frame nailing device (Walter T. Kelly has these) is very nice to put wooden frames together. It holds 10 frames in place for you to nail them. It is a little tricky to figure out at first, but it's a real time saver and frustration saver.

A 1/4" crown staple gun and compressor. Everyone who owns a car needs a compressor anyway. The staple gun is under a $100. Walter Kelly has one that is the right size. It will shoot from 1 1/2" to 5/8" staples (which I buy at the local lumber or hardware store). The 1" are perfect for frames. The 1 1/2" are perfect to put boxes together. The 5/8" are nice for when you don't want it to go through a 3/4" board and the 1 1/4" are nice when you don't want to go through two 3/4" boards (like when you put a cleat on for a handle on a homemade box). Then you don't have to pre drill all those holes in the frames. I was a carpenter for years and am pretty good at nailing, but when doing frames I bend as many nails as I don't bend. Half of them are bent and pulled out when nailing by hand. But maybe my problem is I used to one lick a 16p nail and I don't have the finesse.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited August 07, 2003).]

[ChellesBees]

I haven't tried a hooded jacket yet, but the coveralls that I inherited have a zip on veil. The first time I caught my ponytail in that zipper, they heard me swear a mile away. Anyone with long hair may want to consider the string veil, or the hood.
And make sure the gloves are the right size. You can't do anything if your gloves are sloppy big. (this coward wears gloves)

[Wallybee]

Coward??? Anyone working bees should wear whatever makes them feel comfortable. I don't wear gloves most of the time, but I keep a pair in my truck. You never know when you'll open a hot hive.

[Michael Bush]

>I haven't tried a hooded jacket yet, but the coveralls that I inherited have a zip on veil. The first time I caught my ponytail in that zipper, they heard me swear a mile away. Anyone with long hair may want to consider the string veil, or the hood.

I hate to burst any preconceptions about me, but I have a ponytail down to the middle of my back. And I admit a stray hair gets in the zipper now and then, but it still hurts less than the stings. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

>And make sure the gloves are the right size. You can't do anything if your gloves are sloppy big. (this coward wears gloves)

I also wear gloves most of the time. I take them off only when I have a good reason to. It's amazing how good you can get at some fairly complex things wearing gloves, but then working outside in -10 F weather as a carpenter in Western Nebraska I had already learned some of it.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

>> I hate to burst any preconceptions about me, but I have a ponytail down to the middle of my back. And I admit a stray hair gets in the zipper now and then, but it still hurts less than the stings.

Is it just me that doesn't think honey bees sting really hurt? Yellow Jackets and Wasps yeah for sure they hurt like a #$@#%@, but honey bees don't hurt me, but feel more like a warm irritation.

Now I haven't had a hive in a while as you all know, but except for the first year of beekeeping 18 years ago, I haven't worn gloves and have only worn a hood when they seems a bit aggressive. Whether the stings hurt or not, its still no fun getting stung near your eyes, or maybe even inside your ears (but I haven't been stung in the ear before).

When I restarted this winter/spring I was really just considering getting a viel and wearing jeans and a tee shirt. Have bees become more aggressive? (I don't buy tooooo much into that africanization). Michael, what's the disposition of the bees your were considering supplying this spring?

------------------
--
Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me

[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited August 05, 2003).]

[ChellesBees]

On the veil: The pony tail is why I would use a string veil instead of a zipper. I don't know if the hoods have that problem. I just manage to catch too much hair in that blasted zipper, and it is so much easier to tuck it under the string.
On gloves: in the stuff I inherited, there were at least 3 pair of mens size med or even large bee gloves. When I went to buy some stuff of my own, the first thing the supplier said was "oh, you are going to want these good thick cow hide gloves" problem being, that as soon as you go to a size small, they are just too thick and clumsy for me. I went with the lightweight goatskin ones, in a size small,(I have very small hands) and can do everything I need to with them. I have been stung through them once in three years. Point being, that had I listened to the salesperson- I either would have another pair of gloves I can't use, or I don't know what I would have done. At that time I would not have worked them without gloves.
On stings: Some hurt, some don't. Yes, wasp and yellow jacket seem to hurt more, but for me the bees stings vary with the location of the sting and the amount of venom.

[This message has been edited by ChellesBees (edited August 05, 2003).]

[scott_dixon]

I've been using Deer Skin gloves. Very pliable, but thick enough that the stinger won't go through.

[Michael Bush]

>When I restarted this winter/spring I was really just considering getting a viel and wearing jeans and a tee shirt. Have bees become more aggressive? (I don't buy tooooo much into that africanization).

I had some really vicious bees last summer. I had some hot ones this summer, but all of mine are now pretty calm. I think in my outyard there is still one hive that's a bit hot, but I haven't had time to figure out which one of the ones in the cluster has the ones that keep coming after me when I walk by.

>Michael, what's the disposition of the bees your were considering supplying this spring?

The ones I will be breeding from are all at my house and they are quite gentle, but only because I culled out a couple of hot ones. Feral survivors are a bit unpredictable and that's what I started with this time.

I will elaborate on my terminology.

"Gentle hive: You walk up to the hive and not one bee pays you any mind. You smoke them a little and open up and other than a slight change in hum the bees don't run, or move, they just go about their business. You pull every frame in the box gently one at a time and look at it and one bee buzzing around your head curiously. You set three boxes off and go through every frame of the brood box and maybe three or four bees are actually investigating you and maybe 20 bees are circling around the area, other than the ones returning to the entrance. You close up and walk away and one bee seems intent on following you. You keep walking and about 20 yards away all the bees have left.

"Hot" hive: You are 20 yards away and no bees are bothering you. You approach the entrace and a gaurd bee starts bouncing off of your veil. You smoke them a little and open up and 10 bees come out and start bouncing off your veil. You pull a frame out and 50 bees go into the air and 10 more of them are bouncing off your veil. You pull another frame out and 100 bees go into the air and 20 of them are now added to the melee on your veil. You walk 20 yards away and three of them are still bouncing on your veil. You walk another 20 yards away and two of them are still after you. You run a quick 20 yards and they are all gone.

"Viscious" hive: You approach the hive and 30 yards away you are attacked by about 10 bees. You get to the entrance and you are now being attacked by about 50 bees. You smoke it a bit and wait. Then you open up and the bees start boiling out of the hive. There is no other way to describe what they look like. It's a rolling boil and the smell of banana's is strong and there are bees all over your suit and your gloves with entrails strung out to their stingers. You quickly do your business and leave. At 20 yards there are no less bees after you. At 40 yards there are a few less. You run 40 yards and now there are only about 20 of them trying to kill you. You run another 40 yards and now only 10 of them are trying to sting you. You brush them off and run another 40 yards and now only two or three are trying to sting you. You kill them because they won't give up and you go back to the house. Four hours later you are sitting on the back porch 200 yards away and on the other side of the house and three bees attack you. They don't just buzz you. They sting you. No warning, no provocation. They just sting you.

Last summer I had two viscious hives. Earlier this spring I had two hot hives. Right now at my house I have all nice gentle hives. Since they are from feral survivor stock I can't predict that all of them will be gentle but I will only be keeping and only be breeding from the ones that are. Mean bees suck.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

Alright, maybe I should reclarify. Considering that you must think I am an idiot for asking that. Of course I know there are REALLY nasty bees, but I meant the ones we generally like to keep.

So ....

Have "Gentle Bees" become more agressive?

Michael that was quite an explaination.

[Michael Bush]

My gentle bees are like they have always been but I have had more agressive bees in the last two years than in all the 30 years I kept bees.

[Michael Bush]

>Michael that was quite an explaination.

I thought it would be useful both to clarify my terminology and to let beginners know what to expect. You don't know, when you have your first hive, if they are agressive or not because you have nothing to compare them to.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

Yes, that's very true.

I am sorry if I sounded snappy, I meant all of that with great humor, not with sarcasm. Sorry about that.

[Michael Bush]

Nothing to be sorry for. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[denise_ky]

poney tails and zippers:slip the hair under your shirt so the zipper doesn't get it.
D.

[Michael Bush]

I do put it down my shirt, but with frizzy hair like mine there are always these flyaways that get caught anyway. I just try to push them back first and usually I don't catch too many. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif Also the tie on the end of my ponytail can give the feeling something is IN my shirt (besides me) and that is a bit disconcerting at times. But then sweat running down often does the same thing.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I wish I had started out with two or three hives instead of one. I got a slow start learning what was a new hobby. That first hive never gave me a drop of honey, and eventuly turned into a laying worker colony and died. I guess I did learn quite a bit from that one hive, especially about wax moths http://www.beesource.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

As for getting stung, I liken it to peeing on an electric fence, it gets my attention pretty quick, but the lasting result, (after the first couple stings in the spring), is no worse than a mosquito bite. I have been doing so many colony extractions that I have decided to treat myself and buy the Golden Bee Products "Most futuristic design in beekeeping suits", ABJ Dec. 1997. I am tired of the girls getting under my tie string bonnet. I wish I could still have a pony tail. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

An afirmation for the bee strains is to stay away from the hybreds, the SMR's I had got 'HOT' the second year, but those Buckfasts were somavitches! I personally am switching to New World Carnolians all across the board except in the OLD ferral colonies that I have removed from OLD sites. Those I will tolerate as they are, healthy, hygenic, and mite free.

Bill

[Scot Mc Pherson]

If the feral hives are strong and you really like them, why don't you split them?

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>If the feral hives are strong and you really like them, why don't you split them?

They will not be strong enough this year to split. They were removals from this year and need to get up to strength before I start messing with them again.

I hope that their strains will not be weakened by the introduction of my drones.



------------------
Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[mrbillz]

I too recommend a minimum of 2 hives. I would suggest thinking about starting early - Package bees seem to get hard to find after April - May - I puttered around til May before I realized that Getting started early gives the bees the best start and maybe even produces a little honey the first year. Start late and they need lots of feeding to build up quickly. Other than that, I wish I had read Michaels treatise THIS year before I started! Oh, and what is a hairpin queen catcher? can I make one or where do I get one?

[swarm_trapper]

hey bullseye bill where will you get the carniolans from?

[Michael Bush]

>Package bees seem to get hard to find after April - May - I puttered around til May before I realized that Getting started early gives the bees the best start and maybe even produces a little honey the first year.

You pretty much only get one shot at package bees. They ship them in April and that's about it around here.

>Oh, and what is a hairpin queen catcher? can I make one or where do I get one?

You have to buy it. It's a hairclip queen catcher because it looks like one of those spring hair clips. Betterbee, Brushy Mt., Mann Lake and Beeworks have them. Probably some other suppliers as well.
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/catalog/page20.htm http://www.beeequipment.com/search.asp product code 341 http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=640 http://www.beeworks.com/uspage3.asp

[Michael Bush]

Thought it might be a good time to renew this thread for all the newbies out there. A lot of good discussion here.

[athiker]

Great post Michael and what a terrific resource Beesource is. My daughter is just starting out on her beekeeping hobby and I am emailing her a link to this post. Thanks.

[K.A Pogge]

I would add if you've been away from beekeeping for more than five years pretend you're a "newbee" and adjust your thinking accordingly. I can't believe the number of things that are different now from when I last kept bees ten years ago. New bugs. New equipment, new philosophies about bee management.

Also, books are great, but it seems like nearly all of them are out of date and few if any cover 'alternative' methods of hive handling. Magazines and sites such as this are a goldmine of information and should be read and the archive areas explored.

[Michael Bush]

Seems like a lot of you are planning on starting bees next year and now is when you start buying equipment and getting it ready and planning where to get your bees so I thought I would point out this discussion. There is a lot of good advice here from people who have "been there". I would read through it.

[Michael Bush]

Someone metioned this thread and wanted it reposted, so I thought I'd just bump it to the top. Now is a good time to start planning for next spring. Plan, build, etc.

[dbolt]

I could not believe the differences in mite control and the new bugs running around. None of this was heard of when I had bees in WA just a few years ago. Now I get back into the hobby this year and so much has changed. That is why I appreciate everyones input and am trying to incorporate many of them now. I wish I had read about the small cell foundation before I started back up and especially interested in playing with feral bees and top bar hives. Thanks

[Dan Williamson]

>>A medium full of honey can weigh up to 60 pounds

Any idea how much of that 60lbs is honey?

Thanks,

Dan

[Michael Bush]

Probably 45 or 50. I never weight an empty. But you can feel the difference between wax and wood, plastic and wood, plastic frames and PermaComb. Wax and wood is the lightest. PermaComb is the heaviest.

[Dan Williamson]

I know it is heavy. I have a hive with 1 deep and 5 meds. I took off the top supers to put a super of foundation right above the brood nest. After taking the first two fully capped supers off I was beginning to wonder what I'm going to do if the hive gets any taller. I only want to extract once. Thank God I'm going to all mediums. I can't imagine trying to lift full deeps when I'm 65-70yrs old. I'm only 31 and they are heavy now!

Dan

[COUNT ZERO]

Perhaps this is a good place for a note about the addictiveness of beekeeping. I started beekeeping this season with two hives, one on large-cell foundation and one foundationless. This was on May 9th. On June 13th, I bought 64 medium supers- 34 were fully assembled with fully drawn foundation and the rest are unassembled. I bought 300 frames and enough accessory woodenware to make 10+ hives. Would someone help me please!
I'm losing friends as fast as I'm adding hives because all I can talk about is bees!

-Brian

[redhawknc1]

This is my first year and I definitely wish that I had found this forum prior! Luckily, an older friend just set me up with one of his hives from his beeyard that was doing great! We moved it up here about 3 months ago! All going fine! Have taken off a little honey and have a new super on now! Really enjoy the chance to read about everyone's experiences and have found that this forum is my most valuable source of current info! Just want to make my mind up about what I do next instead of just copying my mentors setup! He is running 10 frame spaced to 9 frame equipment, with deep brood boxes and shallow supers! Since reading here for the last few months, I am trying to follow Mr. Bush's and others ideals! Just purchased my 1st "English Garden Hive" from Brushy Mountain Bee Farms which is close by. 8 frame cypress medium woodenware. So far I have purchased a bunch of odds and ends from them this year and would have loved to have found this post first! Might have changed my mind about a few purchases, but I like gadgets and being new I appreciate the full BeeMaster Suit I purchased, etc! I have reread Mr. Bush's post several times and will reread several more, probably even make a list of what I am missing from the post! Would like to thank everyone here on the info that is being shared and to again enforce how beneficial it is to the new beekeeper!

[Scott Griffith]

Mr. Bush mentioned permacomb. Where do you purchase permacomb? Can it be mixed in a hive with comb on foundation? Having a slow nectar year and the comb is not drawn to support even the stores they will need for winter. 4 Hives and all are new this year. Thought I might help em out and give them some permacomb.

[Michael Bush]

http://www.bee-l.com/bulletinboard/seets/permacomb.htm

[MichaelW]

I started with four hives by the next spring I had lost 4 hives. I would recomend starting with one. Two at maximum, more than that is just too much for a newbie. You'll find yourself repeating mistakes and seeing which ones die first. The main thing for the first year is to learn, as the opening post says. If you want honey go buy it and eat it as you learn about your bees. You can always cut a bit of comb to get the satisfaction of homegrown honey. I want to go all mediums for new hives, but (as a newbie) starting with nucs was easier than starting from packages for sure. In the long run, you can have your hive bodies mixed in with mostly Illinois supers. I have a couple of annoying shallow supers mixed in, but it aint that bad to have a few weirdos.

[jalal]

redhawk,

congrats on your new hobby!

i recently found out i'm deathly allergic! (6/25)

(i've been stung and stung and stung but this time i was stung 5 times in the chest, when i make mistakes i make'm big apparently. i finished what i was doing and drove down the road, got thirsty, stopped by a store to pick something up for it, i violently started scratching, figured it was the sweat bugging me for awhile until my face [and only my face] was imploding. never saw a doctor, but i sat in a tub for 3 hours after chugging some medication i got at the store, got out and way perfectly fine, no swelling on the chest either. maybe it wasn't that bad of a reaction, i just know it wasn't fun.)

it's too bad, but i'd surely suggest getting an epipen and some other stuffs, if not for YOU, for someone that get's stung and can't take the heat! smile.gif

Again!

congrats on being a big bad beekeeper!

[Michael Bush]

I thought it was a good time to bring this back up. A lot of discussion about starting out.

[Laurence Hope]

It seems, along with myself, there are many new beekeepers starting. I value this board and its varied opinions more than anything I have yet found to mentor me. The club meets 4 times a year. Other beekeepers don't keep my schedule, or I feel like a pest to bother them. This board is alive 24/7 and is a fantastic teacher. Thank you all.

[Laurence Hope]

One more thing. I don't know if I should wait for your book, Michael, or just copy this thread and bind it. I'll second your wife's motion. I think you have a ready market.

[Kenai]

Michael One question (possibly rhetorical), I have two hives that I inherited wood/wax frames. I would like to switch over to Pierco frames/foundation, but you have me questioning this decision for Perma-Comb. So here is my question, Perma-Comb is about double of Pierco what are the advantages?

I read your post and can fully understand your points, no assembly of frames, already drawn, no problems with wax moth, ect. But, after the first year of drawing frames, what are the long term advantages of Perma-Comb other than wax moths? At double the price, I am having a hard time convincing myself to buy them. Can you convince me?

Thanks

[Michael Bush]

>Perma-Comb is about double of Pierco what are the advantages?

Don't underestimate fully drawn and permanant. Moths sometimes build some webs on them (I try to keep the the same as I would drawn combs) but they still don't do much damage. Being able to have drawn comb at your beck and call is a huge advangage. They also have more cells.

>But, after the first year of drawing frames, what are the long term advantages of Perma-Comb other than wax moths?

And SHB.

>At double the price, I am having a hard time convincing myself to buy them. Can you convince me?

I don't want to convince you. I'm just telling you the advantages.

But here's another. At 5.1mm equivelant cell size (when you allow for the thicker cell wall) you have a first regression for small cell. Meaning you'll get somewhat less mites (probably not enough less to never need to treat, but enough less to not need to treat so often) and partially regressed bees if you ever want to regress the rest of the way.

If you wax coat them you get 4.95mm equivelant cell size, which IS enough to handle the mites.

I use a lot of them and also use a lot of foundationless frames. But it's important to me to end up with 4.9mm or smaller in the end.

I have a few sheets of Pierco plastic foundation that came in an observation hive from Brushy Mt (that are sitting on a shelf) one frame of Pierco deep and one frame of Pierco medium (also sitting on a shelf) that I bought to measure cell size. I can't say how it compares to Pierco because I've never actually put it in a hive. I HAVE used a lot of DuraGilt and a lot of RiteCell and no longer use either of those either (I have hundreds of sheets of RiteCell sitting on the shelf) because of cell size.

[katmike]

I also have a question regarding small-cell. I have RiteCell in my hives and would like to eventually move to foundationless frames in the brood chamber to help fight the mites. Is there any real reason for me to move away from RiteCell in the honey supers? After all, there would seldom be any brood raised there.

[Kenai]

>At double the price, I am having a hard time convincing myself to buy them. Can you convince me? I don't want to convince you. I'm just telling you the advantages.<

Michael, first off I did not mean to put you on the defense. As a newbie, I am struggling to make the right decision the first time around. My success ratio is not that good.☻ Lots of people are willing to give opinions, but I need to understand so that I can make the right choice for me. So, thank you for re-explaining.

Second, can you give me a little more information on the process of dipping the Perma-Comb. I have 25, 10 frames/super. Medium suppers that I am going to buy frames for. So how much wax theoretically, will I need to dip the frames? Since I am first year person, I donÂ’t have any wax to use and will have to buy it. Can you put them in, un-dipped? Will the bees make the small cells or are the cell size a function of what size they are originally given?

I apologize this maybe another stupid question but, I am going to ask anyways. I understand the importance of small cell for the broad box. But in the supers for extraction, arenÂ’t larger cells better/easier to extract? Do Beekeepers use different size cells for frames with different purposes, broad vs supers?

By the way, good luck with the book. If you need help with the section on stupid newbie questions, I am at your disposal. Because you unfortunately have only seen the tip of the iceberg!!!!

[Sundance]

I second the request for info on the dipping process. Specifically, what tank you use and heat source.

[jean-marc]

For dipping frames I use a barrel. Half fill it with water. I use a propane heater. I dip my frames outdoors in case of a fire. This fortunately has yet to happen.

Jean-Marc

[Michael Bush]

>Michael, first off I did not mean to put you on the defense.

You didn't. I'm just saying I'm not trying to sell PermaComb. It's been useful for me, but may be too much work or cost for you.

>As a newbie, I am struggling to make the right decision the first time around. My success ratio is not that good.

I'd suggest that whatever you try, don't invest too much in it until you've tried it for a year. You often find you don't like something after you spend a lot of money on it. smile.gif

>Lots of people are willing to give opinions, but I need to understand so that I can make the right choice for me.

I unserstand.

>Second, can you give me a little more information on the process of dipping the Perma-Comb.

I can't say I have a really good method. For that I'd need a rack to put them on, a tank big enough to dip 10 or so at a time and some easier way to knock out the excess wax. I just have an oven, a thermostatic controled double boiler/turkey roaster and an outside table (that has a thick coating of beeswax on it all the time.) I have an stove outdoors (to save heating the house in the summer and give some extra room for Thanksgiving and Christmas dinner) so that simplfies things some.

Two threads with details on wax dipping:
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002082#000002
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002123#000000


>I have 25, 10 frames/super. Medium suppers that I am going to buy frames for. So how much wax theoretically, will I need to dip the frames?

I haven't dipped any lately. Seems like I went through about two or three pounds for every 10 frames. But then thats scraping the table off and throwing it back and some gets on my jeans, boots, the ground etc. And they are NOT frames. They are combs. Fully drawn.

>Since I am first year person, I donÂ’t have any wax to use and will have to buy it. Can you put them in, un-dipped?

Sure.

>Will the bees make the small cells or are the cell size a function of what size they are originally given?

They don't make the cells they are what they are, and undipped they are about 5.1mm (allowing for cell wall thickness).

>I apologize this maybe another stupid question but, I am going to ask anyways. I understand the importance of small cell for the broad box. But in the supers for extraction, arenÂ’t larger cells better/easier to extract?

I don't see any difference extracting small cell or standard size. If you want ease of extraction then use drone foundation for the supers. If you want the queen to not lay there, use 7/11 for the supers.

>Do Beekeepers use different size cells for frames with different purposes, broad vs supers?

Yes. Some people (Davide Eyre comes to mind) like Drone cells in the supers. Easy to extract, takes less wax. But you have to use an excluder or you'll get drone brood in your supers. Some people (myself in the past) use 7/11 foundation (you can get it from Walter T. Kelley) in the supers. The queen doesn't like to lay in it because it's not worker or drone, but right in between. It's about 5.7mm, if I remember right.