'nother foundationless question

[kookaburra]

Hi
I read through some of the older posts regarding foundationless, but didn't see this question...

I put 1 foundationless frame (deep) in the middle of the brood in 2 different hives. Both are now drawn out w/ brood, but they are only attached on the top.

Will they eventually attach the bottom and sides? The comb is currently quite unstable.

They both drew mostly drone comb. Is this normal? I also tried one medium in a honey super, and they attached top and bottom, but there too it was mostly drone (I don't care so much there...)

Thanks, Rick

[Michael Bush]

>Will they eventually attach the bottom and sides? The comb is currently quite unstable.

You have to handle them carefully until they get attched to the sides. Usually they get attched to the sides pretty well and some to the bottom. Sometimes they fill the whole thing out to the edges all the way around. The comb filled with honey requires the most care in handling. Just keep them upright and spin them on a horizontal axis or spin them around upside down without going flatways.

>They both drew mostly drone comb. Is this normal?

Depending on the time of year and the amount of drone comb in the hive, they are usually looking for places to build it and will otherwise tear down good worker comb to build it. You gave them the opportunity to do it without tearing down the worker comb. So they took it. They also often draw beautiful worker comb.

>I also tried one medium in a honey super, and they attached top and bottom, but there too it was mostly drone (I don't care so much there...)

When they are building cells for honey storage it's almost always VERY large cells, even larger than drone comb.

[kookaburra]

Thanks, judging from the wiggling of the comb so far I don't have any intention of even taking it out for a while. I won't spin the deeps.

Do you think that size of the frame would make a difference with attachment, deep versus medium?

[Michael Bush]

Obviously the medium has more attachment for the amount of comb, no matter how they do it. Also they get to the bottom sooner. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

I think mediums get attached sooner, yes.

It's also an issue of the age of the comb. Brand new comb is very soft. As it ages it gets less soft. Aged comb that is attached on at least some part of all four sides on a medium frame has extracted fine for me. Often it is attached most of the way on the sides and only a couple of places on the bottom.

If you are worried, in the future you can add a dowel vertically (or horizontally) in the center. They tend to attach the dowel. I've also used pieces of thin welding rod for supports horizontally (I just ran it through the center wireing hole and put a bend on each end) on Dadant Deeps because they are so deep I'm concerned about the comb collapsing before it gets attached on the sides or ages enough to get some strength. Also on some of the Dadant deeps I put the angled piece I cut off of the top bars on the sides to encourage more attachment there. This works to get more attachment on the sides. I glue it and staple it with 1/2" long 1/4" crown staples.

But I haven't bothered with any of these extras on the medium frames. Just the angled top bar.

You can also put an angle on the bottom bar to encourage attachment there. Rev. LL Langstroth recomended the angles on the top and sides and a center support running vertically.
http://www.beeclass.com/DTS/equiphistory.htm

As far as I know Charlse Simon came up with putting them on the bottom bar.
http://www.charlesmartinsimon.com/pictures.htm

[kookaburra]

Sounds good. So far I'm not too worried, but since I plan on making my own frames I don't want to spend on foundation, either. I'll try a dowel or maybe a small square-shaped peice, corners up.

and do as few deeps as possible..... (mediums are easier to make)

Thanks

[Russ]

MB, Would it work to move the frame to the outside after it is drawn and had brood in it and let the brood hatch out. Then they might fill it with honey. Would this work?????

[Martha]

I'm not a talented woodworker (yet) so I make an "X" of wire. So far that hasn't bothered them. I did this in the deeps and mediums. Yeah, I'm a bit cautious. It's just my first year.

The dowel sounds good too. What diameter of dowel?

Martha

[Michael Bush]

>MB, Would it work to move the frame to the outside after it is drawn and had brood in it and let the brood hatch out. Then they might fill it with honey. Would this work?????

Sometimes. Sometimes they just keep rasing brood in it. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif
>I'm not a talented woodworker (yet) so I make an "X" of wire. So far that hasn't bothered them.

I haven't done it with no foundation but that's how I usually wire a deep frame.

>The dowel sounds good too. What diameter of dowel?

Anything will work. Thinner won't be quite as strong but also won't break up the brood pattern and the comb drawing as much. Thicker is stronger but will break it up more. I'd probably go for 1/8" or 3/16", but 1/4" would probably work too. The nice thing about the 1/8" is it will fit in the grooves top and bottom (if you have grooves).

Also it depends on the depth. A medium could get by with a thinner dowel and a Dadant Deep would probably need a thicker one since it spans twice as much.