inspectors

[Cz's Beez]

Is it a requirement in New York State to have your hives inspected? It may be a good idea but i was wondering if it was required.

[peggjam]

At this point it is volintary. Yes the law says you do, but it is not enforced. Over in the Bee Form theres a bunch of recent threads dealing with this subject, look on pages 3..4..or 5.

[sqkcrk]

What NY "requires" verys from year to year. By law the Commissioner of Agriculture can authorize the inspection of colonies within the state of NY by his Deputys, the Apiary Inspectors.

Out in the Rochester area, this would have ben Kevin O'Donnell, last sason.

Depending on how many people are employed to do Apiary Inspections on 2006, you may not have anyone in your area to do inspections.

Unless you want a job? You'd have to get rid of your bees, though.

[Cz's Beez]

thanks for the info

[sqkcrk]

anytime

[carbide]

Unless you want a job? You'd have to get rid of your bees, though.
Does this mean that in the state of New York you can not be an inspector if you are a beekeeper? Do they consider this a conflict of interest? To me this is like saying that you can't be a state game warden/protector if you hunt. Doesn't make sense to me.

[sqkcrk]

I'm supposed to get a letter about that very thing, sometime this week. I'll let you know.

[peggjam]

"To me this is like saying that you can't be a state game warden/protector if you hunt. Doesn't make sense to me."

I don't even see the paralell here. I don't see where a game warden that hunts is a problem, unless he is trespassing on private land to do it, which is way outside his duties, and would be treated the same as a normal tresspasser.

When you have an inspector who is in the business of making honey, raising queens, or selling hives/nucs there is a big problem. If such a feller came into your yard, told you to destroy all your hives because you have AFB, and then offer to sell you all new ones.....or while inspecting your hives he crushes a few queens and offers to sell replacements....or he goes to the landowner where your best yard is located and offers to pay more rent than you.....no conflict.....hmmmmmmmmm......

[sqkcrk]

Now peggjam, certainly that would be a conflict of interest.

And the Department and I have been aware of all of the Inspectors who own bees, including myself.

It has been an accepted C o' I for ages. Perhaps many beekeepers don't like it, but no one else wanted to do the job, except beekeepers. Or people who once they became Inspectors built bee businesses to feed their families through the lean times of unemployment or no program.

Many people have said to me, "Oh, I thought that the program was dead." And it almost was.

After the letter coming later this week we will see how many people will be eligable. If the letter says, "If you own bees, you can't be an Inspector.", you will see quite a few fewer Inspectors or some of us will have to sell our bees. I'd rather not. But, my wife and I will make that decision in regards to what's best for us. Either way, some changes are coming.

[power napper]

Hey guys--just sell the bees to your wife or kids or neighbor with an understanding of the how the world is and solve the dilemma, it is not illegal to be an inspector if any of your relatives have bees is it? Any person that was corrupt enough to sabatoge a fellow beekeepers bee sites or integrity could end up finding nails and ashes instead of hives. Todays world is three light years different than what it was like when I was a kid! I would trust a beekeeper inspecting my hives much more than any other trade doing the inspection.

[sqkcrk]

Being related to a beekeeper will be tested out, if the regs come down to no bees.

There is one Inspector from last year who lives with her parents and her father has bees. What will she have to do? Move? Swear not to help her father?

She already shouldn't Inspect her Father's bees, on the job. What if she advises him or visa versa?

We will see.

[peggjam]

"It has been an accepted C o' I for ages."

Accepted by NYS, maybe, but certainly not by the beekeepers who call NYS home. Which is why we have the current situation. And, everything I have described in my last post has happened. More than once.


"Hey guys--just sell the bees to your wife or kids or neighbor with an understanding of the how the world is and solve the dilemma, it is not illegal to be an inspector if any of your relatives have bees is it?"

This is the kind of thinking that will kill the program for good. If the NYS inspection service wants to inspect hives, they need to EARN the trust of the beekeepers, and that is not the way to do it. If you can't own bees, then you can't own bees. Slipping through a loophole to achieve an end around a regulation will ensure the demise of the inspection program.

[sqkcrk]

Geeee, power napper, certainly you aren't encouraging anyone to lie are you?

I, for one, am not qualified. smile.gif I don't have a law degree and I wasn't elected. smile.gif

[Robert Hawkins]

Hey, Hey, Hey. Some elected positions are there to serve the public. Nut you might bee right about the law degree. tongue.gif

Hawk

[sqkcrk]

Who you calling Nut? smile.gif

[Joel]

"To me this is like saying that you can't be a state game warden/protector if you hunt. Doesn't make sense to me."

In the conflict of interest concept for the inspection program the problem is you have beekeepers who make their living at keeping bees inspecting beekeepers who make a living keeping bees and are both competing for the same revenues. As peggjam post points out a few possibilities many more exist.

[sqkcrk]

"Competing for the same revenues." Really?

I recognize that what I have been doing is a conflict of interests, between being an Apiary Inspector and a Beekeeper. No argument there.

But competing for the same revenue? Maybe, maybe not.

If I stop producing honey tomorrow, will that give someone else an opportunity to make more? Or for someone else to get more for their honey?

The honey that I sold to the packers, will they pay more just because I drop out? Or if all of the Inspectors with bees drop out. I don't think so. Do you?

And what about the market that I have developed? The market that no one else was using for at least the first 10 years that I was around and am now into? Now that I have developed a local desire for local honey, I'm sure that someone else could step into my place if I dropped out. But no one is trying to now and there doesn't seem to be anyone willing or able to do what I have. In relation to marketing local honey to the North Country. Not near here anyway.

If I dropped out of pollination to the Champlain Valley, that would knock out about 400 colonies from me for 4 orchards. Anybody want that? Let me know. The guys that I pollinate with would have told me if anyone had been snooping around looking for pollination work.

Rick Drutchess, from VT, asked me a couple of weeks ago if I wanted more pollination work in the Camplain Valley. I guess he's looking to cut back on his obligations.

For the amount of honey production that I loose, going to the ochards, I don't know if it is all that profitable.

If I dropped out, then out of state pollinators would fill in to some of that work. Andy Card pollinates the home orchard of one of my "contracts", so maybe he would fill in there. Not that he is an out of stater anymore, really.

So, my point is that if my being a Beekeeper is keeping someone else from being able to make a living at beekeeping, I just don't see it.

And if my being an Apiary Inspector is keeping anyone from being an Apiary Inspector, that sure ain't the case. We can't find enough people willing to do the job.

So, "C o' I"? Sure. In the literal sense of the word. In competition with other beekeepers? Show me how and how that is negatively effecting other beekeepers.

And let's not talk hypotheticals. Let's talk real situations, now. And other real situations that have happened and how they were resolved.

I'd like the Inspectors to be the best, most interested, most up to date persons available.

Perhaps it's too bad that those people just happen to feel that they have to keep bees in order to do Apiary Inspection and Beekeeping in order to keep their families standard of living above the poverty level. If that's not being to dramatic.

In other words, if I had a job with the security that it would be there the next season, and I could afford to just take the unemployment, I never would have had more than just a few colonies of bees. Especially if it had been spelled out to me that I couldn't.

[sqkcrk]

Isn't an Apiary Inspector/Beekeper more of a symbiotic relationship with other beekeepers, as long as the Inspector/Beekeeper doesn't abuse hers/his "authority"? By symbiotic, I mean a position of helping, aiding and protecting the industry?

I'm been accused of being nieve before, maybe this is the case here, too. But maybe it doesn't matter, anyway.

[peggjam]

Mark

You know the cases of abuse in the NYS inspection program better than anybody here. You know how the inspectors abuse their position of power over other beekeepers in the state. I'm not saying that all inspectors were abusive of their powers, but there were some............

Have you gotten your letter from the state yet??

[sqkcrk]

No letter in todays mail. I'll have to wait another day. I am up here in the hinterland where the Pony Express takes a little longer and the canals require alot of locks to get up to our elevation.

As far as the cases of abuse are concerned, I "know" of some, but not many.

I could repeat the tales or rumors that I have heard. But other than the former Apiary Inspector who has been known to sell AFB, I don't think that I will participate in speculation.

For the most part the problem Inspectors have been relieved of their position for infractions against the State, not the beekeepers.

That, as well as potential beekeeper abuse, is why good supervision is needed. With fewer Inspecdtors covering wider territories, I will predict more chances of abuse of the program, and not the beekeepers. Less close supervision will allow more chances for padding production reports. In my opinion.

[Joel]

Mark, you make some very good points. Is what I read in your post saying that there is no longer acutal competition in the current industry. Are we an industry that has reached the point due to declining beekeepers that competition is no longer an issue. I'd like to explore this concept futher if that is what you are saying, it may be true.

I just bought out a close friend who's throwing in the towel, several hobbyists in my area threw in the towel in last 4 yrs. the nearest competition I have are in Van Etten (9 miles away) and Owego (30 miles away),Mark you know who they are. I never see a bottle of their honey near mine. The main competition locally is Sioux Cooperative and foreign blended honey. What about Wixsons? Although I have voiced the opinion strongly you may have hit an industry anomole in that we are declining. Are we to the point no reasonable competition exists. I guess I figured we would have more time to analyze the issue before the state jumped in. No the packer would not pay more, he'd buy more foreign, is there another beek with 400 hives to replace that pollination, I don't know. What about nuc sales? Are we ending up with surplus nucs at the end of the season? As a former inspector are you saying it would not have affected you if I undercut your Champlain contracts and you lost 15-20K and then had to inspect my hives. Me & peggjam would take those contracts in a heartbeat if your saying they don't matter to you. Could you replace them if we had them? Is there a buyer glut, that remains the question.

There is a way to find out who filed the request to the State Ethics Committee regarding this matter. That person must have had a conflict right?" You're on the inside Mark, Karen must know, Paul must know, check the state website.
Are we competing with other beekeepers or are we becoming just one big socialist industry that will have to work together to survive. If so wouldn't it be to our advantage to throw in together and maximize our time and expertise. Would you consider that Mark? You know a kind of "Beekeepers of the World Unite". Then there would truly be no conflict of interest.

I'd like to hear other opinions, are we arguing a technicality? I'm not saying I agree, I'm saying I'm listening.

[ February 07, 2006, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]

[sqkcrk]

Karen? Karen who? I don't know any Karen. I don't know why there would be anything on the State web site. Is there anything there about AHb? I doubt it.

If there was someone who filed a complaint, it could have been a disgruntled former Apiary Inspector. Or it could have been an Advisor on the Apiary Industry Advisory Committee. Or it could just have been an internal review of standing practices. This has come up in the past. We have filled out these forms numerous times before. Mr. Mungari has always been able to get a repreive for us who own beehives.

Competition in the industry? I don't know. I'm sure that I or your could be competeing with other beekeepers, I just don't see any negative real competition. Maybe I'm blind to it, I don't know.

A couple of years ago, when I was talking to David Hackenburg about the price of honey, he said that the best thing that I could do to effect the price that the packers were willing to pay was to drop out. That couldn't have made much impact. But maybe he was talking about all of the sideline beekeepers, I don't know.

If competition means me keeping someone else from being able to sell honey to the folks that I sell honey to, I don't see any.

Anyone is welcome to try to get into the markets that I sell to. My quality, price and service will keep me on the shelf. And if it doesn't, then I was not keeping up my end of the bargain.

To me, the competition that most threatens us is Forgien Honey Suppliers. And just like I said above, if we can't compete with them on Quality, Price and Service, we'd better get out of the way and let them have it. And quit gripeing about it. Consontrate on pollination and minimize honey production, perhaps.

I was talking to a friend just a little while ago. Maybe we northern beekeepers need to become the queen producers for the nation. Grow northern queens and encourage people to requeen AHb colonies and make nucs to overwinter for spring replacement. What do you think?

[Joel]

{Karen? Karen who? I don't know any Karen.}

I'm sorry, I assumed being good friends with Chuck Kutik you knew his wife Karen who is very active in the Empire State Honey producers. Wasn't she a past officer?? Like just last year. Possibly Empire has a better view than you and I. They have many many people in the industry they deal with. Maybe they are on top of this whole situation and we are worrried about nothing.

{Mr. Mungari has always been able to get a repreive for us who own beehives.}

Well lets hope he does this year until a reasonable solution can be worked out. I don't think being a commercial beek automatically eliminates one from inspections. A large number of colonies are kept by hobbyists that don't care. Some big guys don't care. I think commercial operators should have a choice to not have hives inspected by others who may be in competition. But nooo, lets just crash the program and go from there! Let's see, 2 yrs of no show, next year, no inspectors, well that's working pretty good for this taxpaying beekeeper.

Dave should know about market forces, he was a past president for ABF.

I think with scutella the US beekeeping industry is doomed to years of the continuing doward spriral unless we get on the horns of the problems and quick.

[ February 07, 2006, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]

[sqkcrk]

Oh, that Karen. Of course I know her. We had Chinese Buffet in New Hartford just last week. How could she help? No, she wasn't an Officer. But, I do know the officers. And they don't know as much as I. As far as I know.

I hope that I didn't paint too negative a picture of David H. I consider him a friend. I had a question about honey prices in the mid 1980s and when I called him he was at the ABF meeting in Louisville. So, I know how to get in contact with him.

If the ownership of one colony negates employment as an Apiary Inspector, how could 300 or 400 not be the same? I have some deep soul searching and reality checking to do, soon.

Anybody want a bee business? Pollination included. Outlets for sales of honey to stores. A label, name and inventory of jars, caps and labels.

[peggjam]

"I was talking to a friend just a little while ago. Maybe we northern beekeepers need to become the queen producers for the nation. Grow northern queens and encourage people to requeen AHb colonies and make nucs to overwinter for spring replacement. What do you think?"

Mark

I think you have hit the nail on the head with this statement. I have hinted at this in past posts, and I have no care to produce more honey. Unless you wish to drive to large cities with populations that like honey, I have no market in this area, and couldn't compete with the Amish even if I wanted to....unless I gave it away.

"Are we competing with other beekeepers or are we becoming just one big socialist industry that will have to work together to survive. If so wouldn't it be to our advantage to throw in together and maximize our time and expertise."

I think that the whole queen and nuc rearing industry in the NE is wide open, and if one was to get on the ball and produce nucs and queens for sale, that you would have a market that would grow into something big. This is where our industry is going to be looking for queens that arn't AHB.

"Anybody want a bee business? Pollination included. Outlets for sales of honey to stores. A label, name and inventory of jars, caps and labels."

Are you making as much or more than you would as an inspector? I guess it just depends on wether your happy with the amount of yearly income you generate, and wether you want to grow the business.

[sqkcrk]

Well peggjam, if you lookm at the last ten years P&L from Farming there hasn't been any profit. So, I guess we have been living on my wifes income and Inspection.

I'm not happy with the amount of yearly income, but I am happy with what I've been doing. So, I have some decisions to make. Along with the advice of my wife and my financial advisors.

Crap.

[peggjam]

Most of us arn't in farming to make money, we do it because we enjoy the work, and enjoy our freedom to do as we choose. That's all that makes it worth while.

[sqkcrk]

Certainly you are making enough to keep yourself off the Welfare roles, right?

Like I've said before, I just want to be comfortabley poor.

And the profession that I have chosen, Apiary Inspection doesn't support me and my family without supplemental income from Beekeeping. What I know the most about.

[peggjam]

Mark

There are pros and cons to everything. Let me give you a different prespective. If you remainded an inspector, and got rid of your bees you would no longer have any expenses dealing with bees. Would that make your wife's and your income as an inspector enough to be "comfortably poor"? It just depends on what you want to make, and what you need to make, to live comfortably.

[sqkcrk]

We are considering that. It might be enough. But then there is the job security, or lack there of, to consider.

[mwjohnson]

The thing I don't understand is:
Why can the state can promise the Stanley Theater a million bucks, and build soccer fields and running tracks(there are 2,each of them million dollar deals,13 miles apart that I can point to)and all kinds of stupid things,but we can't pay apiary inspectors enough(with health insurance,+ fund their pension)so that the don't feel the need to have a bee/honey operation? Let them have some bees out back,just no selling bees/honey.
No more conflict of interest,right?
Why not?
You know Jim Powers has announced that he is running for the State Assembly,maybe a beek in Albany could get something started.He's got MY vote.
Mark

[sqkcrk]

More revenues fromtheater tickets than from taxpaying beekeepers. Don't you think? I'll bet that if you went to the mall and asked passers by if they thought that it would be a good idea to fund a bee inspection program at the state level for one million dollars, they wouldn't know what you were talking about and when they found out they would probably say, "Why don't the beekeepers fund it themselves?"

No I didn't know that Jim Powers was thinking about running for State Assembly. Why don't you ask him what his plans for Ag&Mkts and Apiary Inspection are. As a State Assemblyman he won't have much influence over specific programs within the Dept., I don't believe.

[jamiev]

I will start my first hobby hive this Spring here in Rochester. I have read a book or two about beekeeping, and spent time on this site for the past several months. I learned a lot but the real thing will be different I am sure. I have my equipment and my bees are coming in April. Lots of money invested in my new hobby. Wife and kids think I have lost it... who cares.. I can't wait.???
that is, until i started reading all these NYS inspection posts. I just want one hobby hive. What are the implications for me? Will I need to be inspected? Burn my hive?? MaybeI should just stick to vegetable gardening.???

[sqkcrk]

To be blunt, as I often am, you will have to burn your equipment if it is diseased. Burning, burying or landfill are the standard ways of getting rid of AFB contaminated equipment.

If you are starting with new equipment, then it is still clean. Are you buying a nuc or a package?

The package is the best way to get bees and not disease. But the nuc is the better way of getting bees that will be able to build up comb and honey stores, as long as they are not diseased.

You should get a nuc from someone willing to reimburse you for disease damage in the first 6 months, if you are using new equipment.

If you are using used equipment, then you are on your own.

I'm not trying to put the fear of god into you, just trying to fill you in.

This isn't just a simple hobby. You do have a lot of expense and alot of learning.

Yes, this is diffwerent from vegetable gardening but it can be fun, too.

[Joel]

{You should get a nuc from someone willing to reimburse you for disease damage in the first 6 months, if you are using new equipment.}

Mark, out of all the beekeepers you know or anyone posting on this site name one nuc producer who does this? Does Kutik? Drapers? No, it's not reasonable with what we know about the spread of Foulbrood.

Here's some facts. (VanEaton/Goodwin studies-new Zealand) section 5.4 Time Period to develop visual symptoms. Hives developing active AFB after ingesting AFB apores- 19% after 1 month, additional 30% @ 2 mo., 11% at 3 mo, 14% @ 4 mos. Now add to this (same study section6.1) 20 honey supers from hives clinically tested with less than 5 larve showing AFB infection per hive)- (an infection not detecable in the apiary) were place on 20 hives in a yard with 40 hives. Although no robbing was noted AFB was detecable in all 40 hives 2 days later (lab analysis). 20% of the colonies not receiving the supers and 45% of those that did developed active AFB infections.

Conclusion- Beek buys 10 nucs, another beek or wild hive 2 miles away is infected with a very minor, undetecatable infection and at least 20% (2 nucs) will develop disease within 4 months. Since most likely it won't be such an insignificant infection in the foreign hive maybe 3, 4 or 5 hives get AFB. So when this happens, responsible nuc producers like Chuck Kutik. Bill Draper and I should take the hit.

I think this is an unresponsible reccommmendation especially coming from someone with your level expertise!

We best stop disagreeing though, we are starting to sound like and old married couple!

[ February 09, 2006, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]

[sqkcrk]

Well, sorry. Perhaps I wasn't thinking it through and should have said something different.

"5 larvae showing AFB infection per hive-) (an infection not detectable in the apiary)" I must be dense, I don't understand this statem,ent. How could the infection be "not detectable in the apiary" and yet found? How was it found if it was "not detecable in the apiary"? When Allen Nirschl, Joe Hewitt, another inspector and I went through all of Paul Ballards colonies in 2003, because ti appeared as though his AFB was out of control, we found lots of cases of one cell infections. maybe those folks in new Zealand need to spend more time in beehives. I don't know them, so i hope that they don't take offense at that but, I don't understand how you can have "5 larvae showing AFB infection" and not find it under normal inspection procedure. can you explain that to me, please?

With all of the knowledge that you appear to have at your finger tips, why are you even messing with trying to make a living at beekeeping?

Do you know all of this stuff or are you just good at finding it? I'd better not let you near any of my apiaries or you will be glad that I am not an inspector after seeing them. Your level of knowledge blows me away. You perhaps think that I should know these things as well as you appear to. But I don't.

Maybe you should apply for State Apiarist when the position comes open in 20--. You seem to be more qualified than Dennis V. or Paul Cappy.

Did you really want a reply to your question about Lloyd Spear, on the other thread?

[Joel]

{How could the infection be "not detectable in the apiary" and yet found?}

Scientist in the Lab. The larvae were not dead or showing symptoms, just infected. Van Eaton and Goodwin wrote the definitive study on elimination of American Foulbrood withoug the use of Drugs. If you know about scientific method that's what they do. They could have found those 5 cell hives you guys located without even going out to the apiary!! Like most scientist (like my dad) they probably couldn't manage a 100 hives for a year if they had tons of money and hired help though.

{Maybe you should apply for State Apiarist when the position comes open in 20--. }

I couldn't afford to take that much of a pay cut!

(why are you even messing with trying to make a living at beekeeping?}

Because It's what I really want to do with my life. I've been the nature boy since I was 4. I was in the forest of the fingerlakes while all my friends were at friendlys, the movies, hanging out doing nothing and I want to get back, for good.

{Do you know all of this stuff or are you just good at finding it}

Both, it's my passion in life.

No to the last question, I was having a temporary moment of insanity due to a very difficult day in my day time endeavors.

[sqkcrk]

Oh, come on, I really want to answer that question. Ha ha ha. Probably not.

Your passion in life? Sure it's not an obsession? smile.gif smile.gif If I ever get stumped on something beekeeping data wise, I'll be sure to contact you.

Can't afford the pay cut? You haven't heard the pay scale, yet. Or are you just bragging? No wonder you can afford to keep bees.

That was 1 cell, not 5. One visually detectable cell of AFB.

If those guys could find the infected AFB larvae without going to the yards does that mean that they had people who did go to the yards?

I'm a beekeeper and former Apiary Inspector, so I haven't been able to buy the books that I would like to have. I might not be able to read them anyway without falling to sleep. But what was that book titled? Was that the book about eliminating AFB without chemicals? Maybe larry Connors would let me have one on the installment plan.

[AndrewSchwab]

MWJOHnson You mean the "Jim Powers" that lives in ID????

[sqkcrk]

AndrewSchwab, no he means the James Powers of South New Berlin, NY who is a beekeper/dairy farmer and former Apiary Inspector. Not from Ideehoe.

[sqkcrk]

Oh, yeah. Any news from Carl? We could all use a tip. smile.gif

[Joel]

{Can't afford the pay cut? You haven't heard the pay scale, yet}

I'm going by the poor salarys listed for the current positions in light of the amount of expertise an inpector needs.

Yea opbsession is more accurate

The work out of New Zealand is "Elimination of American Foulbrood without the use of Drugs- A Practical Manual for Beekeepers" By Mark Goodwin and Cliff Van Eaton. My copy is not copyrighted and was free as I got if off the Web when it was 1st published @ www.beekeeping.co.nz/disease/man01.htm (http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/disease/man01.htm) Since it became the standard they decided to copyright and sell it. It is pretty comprehensive. It can be a dry read but chock full of useful information.

[jamiev]

Sqkcrk and Joel, FYI, I have ordered and already received my equipment, all eight frame mediums which I will fill with small cell foundation. All equip is NEW from Brushy Mt.in North Carolina.
My bees are coming sometime in April. I ordered a package of small cell italians and a marked queen from Buckeye (in Ohio?) As you may have figures out I have spent a lot of time reading all the small cell threads on this forum. I am a big fan of Michael Bush. I am well aware of all the things that can go wrong. But I am willing to take a chance. I will be looking for help from many of you this spring. It's nice to know so many experts are here on the forum.
(I have also noticed that there are plenty of different points of view on various beekeeping issues.) Hopefully I can sort through them. Thanks for your input

[sqkcrk]

There's always room for one more. Welcome aboard.