From: "deelusbybeekeeper" <deelusbybeekeeper@excelonline.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:30:14 -0700
To: <BiologicalBeekeeping@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: How do you tell diseases apart


To Peter and others on BioBee:

> E.F.B. has classic symptoms that have been assigned to a particular
bacteria type.
> But is it clear that so called E.F.B. symptoms are always caused by the
same and single infection?

Reply:

No it is not clear Peter, and no one talks about co-mingled cases either of
AFB and EFB both, nor do they discuss para foul brood. Much discussion went
on with this a few years back here as resistance was growing to anitbiotics.
Especially para foul in combination with other foul broods.That is why we
went to propolis patties and got off of TM patties and then even phased out
the propolis patties and went to strickly 4.9mm foundation to gain better
control of our mites and secondary diseases..

> I really am starting to wonder!
> Is the term E.F.B. being used as a generic term to cover a multitude of
different infections/ stress induced problems showing
> similar symptoms?

Reply:
Though not meant to be, I surely think so Peter, but I could be wrong.

This was the time frame PMS syndrome came on in the US and talk was begun.
It couldn't actually be identified, resistance was growing, so a new term
was coined in conjunctioin with the mites. To us upon dissection (video
camera over shoulder) and showing the film to our local club, the symptoms
didn't match up to either AFB, or EFB and so old books on para fould were
dug up (which helped a lot by the way, and some do reference para foul now
since then).

> Hence:
> Are the symptoms resulting from Melissococcus pluton infection in bee
larvae similar to those due to other infections and
> problems?

Reply:
Yes, and we found many times the symptoms had been lumped together here in
USA, rather then breaking the para foul out like it should have been, from
other foul broods. Why! cross resistance again or helping one with
treatments and the other not helped and only getting worse in severity
within the colonies.

Also, we found propolis was too expensive to use back in the colonies to
control(started saving for ourselves for anitbiotics as drugs for people are
playing out also) and others couldn't follow us locally and we could supply
all in our local area.(Why? propolis has a higher affinity for absorbing
chemicals & various dopes then wax,making it unsuitable for use in a hive-
Use something with a higher affinity for asborbing chemicals and then have
it shellacked in the very cell the queen lays in to raise young- and you
then wonder what is wrong!!!!with the brood???)

> Pesticide manufacturers themselves have claimed in publicity that certain
products will induce "disease" like symptoms in
> targeted organisms.

Reply:
This is quite true Peter. Pesticides are targeted and when the chain of
natural parasitic host relationships is breached(for all organisms i.e.
mites, bacteria, fungi, viruses, etc), things go out of wack, and then they
have to find another treatment to counteract the disease now out of control.
But then that is more money for them. Working with out of wack scenarios,
rather then telling beekeepers to go back to the beginning to alleviate the
actual cause of all, and re-create a harmonious situation to end the
problems, so they don't start in the first place. This is all small natural
cell size is doing. Going back to before the time big artificial combs got
our colonies out of tune with the natural environment.

Regards,

Dee