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From: "deelusbybeekeeper" <deelusbybeekeeper@excelonline.com>
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:13:16 -0700
To: <BiologicalBeekeeping@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: BEE RACES AND REGRESSION
Hi to all on Biological Beekeeping
Clay wrote:
> Have now
started four colonies in the regression process. Wedmore states
that the carniolan bee is a larger bee. In comparing cell size
between
italian and italian/ hybrid and carniolan colonies (two of each)
the
carniolan have gone to the larger size (5.0mm) and italians (4.95mm).
What
variations between races cell size should be tolerated?
Reply:
Clay, this depends upon whether
or not you aim to manage and keep them
seperate by same differences. In the natural, bees break out
into small,
medium and large scenarios just like other animals do, including
people.
> I am
assuming each race will have its own cell size that is best based
on their traditional characteristics. Also micro climate will
play an important role here (I'm in
Adirondack Mountains of NY).
Reply:
Early on when bees were brought
here from overseas, many tried to match
their breeding to the area from whence they came. This was done
because
Nature and natural selection would quickly change what was brought
over, if
replication of home conditions could not be duplicated.
That is one reason why our
small blacks have held in the hills above the
3500 foot level and better above 4,000 foot elevation. We also
make
divides/splits where possible in the winter months between the
winter and
spring solstices, because temperature variants mimic optimum
breeding temps
for caucasian types here locally (however, this may be spring
or fall
restricted in you neck of the woods). We restarted our breeding
again this past spring
after a 5 year layoff, after watching which way the bees themselves
wanted
to go to survive.
We were told our blacks would
disappear in the hills and flats completely if
we did nothing, but they did not (but for those knowing me, I
had to be
sure, because I believe in following the bees).
Yes, you have Italian and black
bees in your area. You say Carnolian? No
caucasian? You say two Italian and Italian mix and two Carnolian
were used.
Right now the bees are adjusting
to the combs. Then the combs will adjust
the bees. Then suttle changes will begin.This shows by what you
are already
seeing, in differences by the two with the cell sizes drawn.
Right now the bees will key
with first regression to the cell size as best
they can. Then once the size is locked with latitude, the bees
themselves
will start mating changes, based on natural in-field breakouts.
Here, because the Italian are by right, normally the smallest
of the European bees, they should go to the smaller for main
averaging; and since the carnolian are among the largest, they
should go the opposite for main averaging. But in real life,
this in the
size of the bee is quite small and could mean only the difference
in .1mm or .2mm
sizing, i.e. 4.7-4.9 or 4.8-5.0. ;but in the end what will live
realisticly
at your latitude and altitude will prevail, if no usage of any
dopes (various
treatments) is followed.
>To large
a cell size and one loses
thermoregulation in winter and disease control abilities. Yet
some races
tend to be slightly larger than others. Will colonies that naturally
are
larger bee (carniolan) lose any more control for thermoregulation
and
diseases and mite control if this is there natural tendency (to
be slightly
larger)?
Reply:
I do not think you will have
to worry about this in your area, as by
latitude you are not over 6,000 -8,000 feet in elevation for
mountains,
though I could be wrong. And Hewitt early on measured bees around
the turn
of the 1900th century in the upper USA North EAst as 4.9mm.
However if a tendency to 5.0mm
or larger, already knowing that we could not
hold our bees (they lived with parasitic mites, both types),
but the
secondary infections did them in, due to increasing stress loads
in bad
years, then the larger bees will show you over time.
> Compare
that to those who are naturally smaller(italian and
others), Would they both be on equal footing even though the
slight
difference in cell size?
Reply:
Now in your area one would
assume (risky here) the yellow would be at a
disadvantage on a natural system and small blacks would do the
best. Not
because of Latitude(you equate pretty good to that of Italy where
Italian
originally come from) but because you are not necessarily in
a thermal hot
area. But me, coming originally from New York, Clay as you know,
I think if
memory serves me, that the springs near you may be hot mineral
springs, and
might equate fairly well. So I myself would assume (again risky)
that both
Italian mix and small black to the caucasian side might do the
best(as would
small black feral if available), in seating themselves into the
environment
better locally, with Carnolian being forced to change to fit
in, which 4.9mm
combs would do okay , but might not be as hard as you might think,
as, If I
remember right, we talked about early written characteristics
of carnolian,
saying there was yellow blood mixed in with them in various carnolian
strains, carnolian not being completely black in nature.
> Clay-
hoping this makes sense to some!
Reply:
Me hoping this makes sense
back to you.
Your best bet being working
with Italian and Italian mix and small black
feral you talk about being in the area where you live you have
seen, with
the carnolian having to change to fit in more.
Now if beekeepers for the most
part Clay, keep their bees on the same size
foundations, then how would you equate caucasian to carnolian,
if on the
same size combs for the most part? Black is black and characteristics
will
have to change to fit the locality anyway, so what is either,
might not end
up that way in the long run, on a Natural system. So basically,
just follow
the bees and regress them down and see what lives and what characteristics
fall by the way side and which ones get stronger.
Dee
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