From: "deelusbybeekeeper" <deelusbybeekeeper@excelonline.com>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 20:23:57 -0700
To: <BiologicalBeekeeping@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Regression Questions

Hi to all on Biological Beekeeping

Forrest wrote:

>I have listened to you and others talk about shaking bees on to 4.9 mm
> drawn out foundation. You are saying this is instant regression. If I was
> to help someone to downsize their bees, I could give them ten frames of drawn
> out 4.9 foundation. They can order a two or three pound package of bees from
> a supplier, install the package on the 4.9 mm drawn out foundation. The next
> brood box could be installed with full sheets of 4.9 foundation and the bees
> would draw this out correctly. Am I correct in my assumptions?

Reply:

Yes! Now that we have our numbers up and excess drawnout 4.9mm foundation,
we take extracted wet frames and start all new colonies with a minimum of
two wet frames in the center of the super for the queen to immediately lay.
This works well for both fresh caught swarms and would work for colonies
coming off larger combs (though we don't have any anymore on wrong size
combs!).

Now to clarify further, on fresh caught swarms, since they are already going
smaller for the most part and in the mood, we normally use two frames
(exception being really large swarm that needs two boxes and then we
increase to 4 frames in bottom and 2 in top super).We fill rest of the super
with new foundation for the bees to draw.

For shaking down domesticated bees already on bigger combs, i.e. 5.4mm or
bigger, we used to use at least 4 wet frames to give the queen a nucelius to
lay in and the old bees a place to put honey and pollen until a brood cycle
is out and emerging with new sized down bees. Once the old field force dies
off in 4-6 weeks and all that is left is new smaller bees, the main problem
is passed. Now, if it is an exceptionally large colony shaken down, then you
are sure right that ten frames would indeed do the trick. The job would be
then finished, when the queen superceeds and requeens and mates naturally
smaller, later on.

This is what we call going pot progressive! Once you get seed frames
drawnout good, with culling the first year, even if the bees die over winter
because they couldn't do both jobs of drawnout combs and put in sufficient
supplies of honey and pollen to carryover, you have combs to work with the
second year, to really be able to run with it and make good strong colonies.
Then, once you have good strong colonies, you can pull surplus drawnout
frames, to help other colonies come thru the drawing process, especially the
trouble ones that just cannot seem to get it right! Why keep wasting good
foundation then, simply give them pre-drawn out combs from another colony
that does the job right, until the old workers that cannot get it right are
gone.

Forrest, I can see a market for pre-drawnout 4.9mm combs for quite awhile,
for use with packages or freshly caught swarms, and/or nuc broodnest
conversion packages, with laying queens and already rightly sized combs
filled with brood, where beekeepers then just finish filling out the
broodbox super, by purchasing 4.9mm foundation from Dadant now it is
available, and then just keep going on.

Something to think about! Clean bees have to come from someplace to build a
new organic market. That market will take and expect clean combs, etc.Many
beekeepers might not want the hastle of all the work involved,if they can
get predrawn combs elsewhere, and nucs already sized down, ready to go.

Dee