From: Barry Birkey <barry@birkey.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 21:12:12 -0600
To: <BiologicalBeekeeping@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: what is a feral bee

Hi all -

Finally getting time to pour over the input given on this topic. It's no
surprise that few agreed on any one definition of feral. It proves to me
that discussions containing references to feral bees would rarely be
understood or interpreted in the same way by the various parties.

On one hand, feral infers a distinctness or uniqueness about many elements
together. The bees and their surroundings.

Allen:
> In such hospitable areas, feral bees take on characteristics that tend
> to be very distinct and which stubbornly resist change.

> Even the invasions by the AHB seem to be characterized by a strong
> initial impact lasting a few years, followed by a tendency to reversion
> towards the original characteristics of the adapted local feral
> population -- if there was one.

It would still be interesting to know, if possible, what these
characteristics are.

Malcolm gave us some insight into how we might qualify the other side
(domestication). I especially took note of this:

"As far as we know, few changes occurred in either honey bee structure or
behavior to accommodate to humans similar to those in the domestic dog. This
is in spite of the fact that both organisms have been associated with humans
for almost as long."

Surely some significant change has taken place with our domesticated bees
and dogs when compared with the wild version. Surely our breeding has played
a major role in this? Wild dogs look and behave quite differently than our
domesticated pets. While we may not be able to see a physical difference
between the bees, have we been able to significantly change the bees we keep
in hives today, apart from appearance?

Dee said this:
> Yes if placed onto the proper sized combs. They will tear the others
> apart in breeding and foraging also.

Others felt that length of time was important in describing feral. The
longer the bees were some place other than a beekeepers hive, the greater
possibility that they would be feral. Even bees seen coming and going from
an abandoned modern hive over the years might be considered feral, yet I
question this unless it can be proven that it is the same bees year after
year and not new bees that keep coming in from elsewhere. If swarms from
domestic bees keep inhabiting this hive, would they not still be
domesticated, at least until new genes where introduced?

Dee writes about feral:
> "where bees are harmonious with Nature."
> "they are not all random sizes"
> "They are when uniform only mating with one possibly two strains/races at
> most."

I assume a more uniform color also goes along with this as a characteristic?
I tend to think of feral along the lines that Allen and Dee have suggested.
A multifaceted definition, one that is not explained with few words. I think
often times people apply feral to bees that are in that transition group,
rather than the true feral that Allen talks about.

Robert wrote:
> This is reflected in English law, which regards bees, if I understand
> it rightly, as wild animals in a temporary state of captivity.

And exactly how are they captive? Is a bird nesting in one of our bird
houses a captive animal? This is an interesting concept applied to bees I
never quite understood. Does this not prove that domestication has to be
more on the genetic side and less on the material side, such as hive
structures?

Someone else felt that human influence was what defined feral. No human
influence, it's feral. Is this only direct human influence or also indirect,
as would be the case with swarms leaving a domesticated hive where the bees
had been breed for certain characteristics.

Don wrote:
> I won't consider my bees feral however long they stay in my hives.
> I'm the one who put them there

What would they be if you had an empty super sitting around the apiary and
one of your hives swarmed and made the empty super their home? They moved in
without your help. Does that make them any different than the ones you put
in yourself?

> it is domestic; they're my bees.

in this case, feral is any bee that is not in someone's apiary?

Dave wrote:
> but I have never noticed any behavior differences between feral and
> escapee, that are not the same as behavioural
> differences apiary to apiary and beekeeper to beekeeper.

Could you expound on this a bit more please? Not sure I'm getting everything
you're after here.

Sorry Helmut, there is still no end in sight to this discussion! :>)

Regards all,

Barry