From: "deelusbybeekeeper" <deelusbybeekeeper@excelonline.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:04:00 -0800
To: <BiologicalBeekeeping@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Posting Guidelines and Dadant

Hi to all on Biological Beekeeping:

Gene wrote the following:
>
> I really believe that they are working on this matter
> with good intent and with a good heart and are
> deserving of our respect as a company and people who
> care about bees and beekeepers. As we continue to work
> out the detales and standards in this foundation
> matter I believe we will get much more results with a
> little more HONEY and a little less vinegar. (if you
> know what I mean)

Further Reply:

By now you all know I posted that the foundation Dadant is currently making
we would be uncomfortable using in our own outfit because it is so close to
the size we hand made up until 1995 for ourselves and USDA experiments with
the USDA Tucson Bee Lab in the late 1980s and early 1990s, plus having
crashed on that size, thus requiring another regression step from 1996
forward. In the spring of 1997 we began retrogression again on 4.9mm
foundation hand milled with mills brought from Tom Industries.

Barry has already made urls which I noted to all here showing pictures of
the old foundation we made up until 1995 (5.0mm - 5.1mm), what we are now
making today (4.9mm) and Dadants current 4.9mm foundation.

I have said we are currently in a cordial dialogue with Jerry at Dadant and
samples of foundation have been sent back and forth between us, as to what
each of us is making for comparison.We are both being very open and trying
to share information. Jerry and Dadant want to help the industry as much as
we do. They have their engineers studying the problem.

Unfortunately, there was a comb measuring methodology change back about 100
years or so ago complicating the situation. This is further complicated by
the fact that sizing as to what is sold to beekeepers is not exactly spelled
out so beekeepers know what they are buying in field actual sizing, as
pertains to their bees. Namely is it natural sizing foundation, or enlarged
foundation, and if so, how enlarged from old books on actual sizing.(Note:
This effects not only foundation needing standardization, but queen cell
cups too, and also possibly sizing standards currently in use for our
various bee races)?

Currently, since the Dadant 4.9mm foundation, while it doesn't match exactly
what we are making with Tom Industries mills, it still is the smallest
commercial foundation on the market for downsizing honeybees today in the
USA. Down sizing is a two step process for most beekeepers and cannot be
accomplished overnight. It takes time and effort. So it is suggested to
begin downsizing with what is available. Namely the current Dadant
foundation.

For those beekeepers that already are smaller and/or already buying
packages/queens from breeders already using 4.9mm foundation with Tom
Industry mills, I don't know what to say except that the problem is being
worked on for foundation availability.

Only together can we create a market that a big commercial production
company like Dadant will try to fill with what is wanted and asked for.

Dee