From: "David Eyre" <admin@beeworks.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 20:44:29 -0800
To: BiologicalBeekeeping@egroups.com
Subject: Re: Observations.

On 30 Dec 2000, at 10:32, deelusbybeekeeper wrote:

In reply to Dee regarding Observations,.

I must admit to some skepticism regarding regressing bees and this is
why I joined this list in the first place, I came to learn. My problem,
applying human traits to this sizing is the equivalent to saying a 7, 6
individual would be more susceptible to disease and pathogens than say a
5, 0 person. Strange to say the least. I have kept bees, successfully
for over 50 years, I for one am not throwing out that amount of
experience without a great deal more information and detail on what I'm
supposed to have done wrong in all that time.

Dee.<I can see David is keeping a yellow hot weather type of bee,
normally found in a tropical climate, in a Northern one in Canada. Since
this is not A natural norm and takes much work>

What determines a hot weather, bee? If one examines the world atlas and
notes the geographical location where my bees originated (Ligustica-
Italians) and my current location, you'll note that they are the same,
just offset by half a world. Canada, while it does get cold in the winter
has terrific summer weather; temps up to 40 degrees Cent are not unusual.

What is the natural norm, here in North America, as bees are not
indigenous, and only came here with the Pilgrim Fathers approx 400 years
ago? This is just a blink of an eye, in the overall scheme of evolution
and change.
As to taking much work, I don't see it. When I first bought my yard and
bees, perhaps, but once I had established a routine then it's no longer
hard work, just routine. My annual losses are below 1%, my bees are
healthy; produce large hives, my annual honey production above the
provincial (state) average. I ship queens to Alaska, California and
Florida annually and have the biggest hives anyone around has seen. I
venture, hardly in trouble!

Dee..<I see from what you have written that you must be keeping your
colonies on enlarged artificial foundation above 5.2mm probably around
5.4mm. Only at 5.4mm or higher would you throw breeding disadvantage
towards the black strains, allowing for extremely poor breeding patterns.
This is contrary to a natural biological system. It would also tend to
give problems towards the enlarged yellow>.

There seems to be inconsistencies in the above and previous writings. I
seem to remember a posting which said we should select towards the black
strain (unclear as to why?) Yet this paragraph leads one to understand
that large cell foundation will lead to both breeding disadvantages for
black and enlarged yellow? Perhaps an explanation would be a good idea.

Dee<Question: I assume you are using a control aid for your bees
temperariorly, until you can get them fully biological/organic, based on
what you have said so far and knowing mites are throughout Canada. How
are your bees holding up? How far have you managed to regress them back to
the chemical free side? What is your field methodology for maintaining a
biological beekeeping operation right now?>

My primary aim is to keep my bees healthy and productive. It's only 4
years since Varroa came our way, so we are quite new to the modern, way
of bee keeping, post Varroa.

I have a complete and utter hatred of using Formic Acid, so it's not
even considered in our treatments. We eliminated Nosema early with the
use of a clean regime i.e. frame changing and the use of Apple Cider
vinegar, and Acetic Acid fumigation, lab tested bees confirmed our
findings. Tracheal mites are non-existent as we subscribed to a testing
program, have tested stock and breed from those. Varroa was initially a
problem, and even with frequent testing we lost a lot of our hives. That
approached economic disaster for us and is not something we want to
repeat, especially the removal and cleaning of all the deadouts, that was
depressing.

Our treatments to date are written up in full on our web site
http://www.beeworks.com/EssentialOils.htm for those who wish to see it in full.
Briefly we use sugar syrup with essential oil (wintergreen) in the early
spring, changing over to a mineral oil on the top bars once per week for
the remainder of the year.

I confess to using Apistan in the fall, possibly a belt and braces,
approach, but it is important that I keep my bees alive, I have customers
who are dependant on my efforts.

As to regression, as I said earlier one should not throw out the baby
with the bath water, at least not without a great deal more information
on what I'm supposed to be doing wrong!

Dee. I would like to compare what you are looking at for breeding
characteristics to ours, since I have listed to you ours. <snip> Again,
David, I look forward to hearing back from you as to what you are doing,
as it takes much effort to keep a yellow bee so far north.

I could at this point bring in a great deal of what Dave Cushman posted
on Saturday 30th as his comments are very close to my personal views
regarding the above questions, I would refer others to his views. Our
selection methods and problems are very similar, mongrelisation is an on
going problem, as we seem bent on introducing strange and exotic
varieties in the search for the silver bullet to combat Varroa. There are
some, fortunately, who are resisting this movement and trying to maintain
clean stock. I hardly want to labour the point, but keeping yellow bees,
this far North is not a problem.

Regards Dave E..