From: "deelusbybeekeeper" <deelusbybeekeeper@excelonline.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:17:49 -0800
To: BiologicalBeekeeping@egroups.com
Subject: Re:girls on small cell, regressing bees



Please reference Dave Cushman's email of Fri, Dec 22,2000, 4:16 AM, #40 on
the listing

Hi to all on Biological Beekeeping

First, I want to say I have been enjoying the discussion with you all and
especially Dave's interaction. Without it, it would be hard to visualize
various concepts and how we all perceive them. As you can probably all see,
we all picture the wordings in our minds a little bit differently, so
discussion adds to greater understanding, so each of us can work better with
our honeybees.

Dave wrote earlier pertaining to what is a 'whole bee' selection concept.
Dave said, 'I have to dissagree on nature breeding as a 'whole bee' it is in
fact minor changes over many generations that enable survivership'

Reply: This is excellently put by Dave that in fact minor changes over may
generations enable survivership within our honeybees, but I do select our
breeding stock based upon what we call a 'whole bee concept'.

Perhaps I should outline basically what we look at in a hive for workerbees,
that one might want to use then, for production of drones later and/or
queens.

We believe that beekeeprs should look for and select honeybee breeder/drone
hives based on a whole bee theory of field characteristics. Since we select
to the black side, because we have found more beneficial characteristics on
this cold-weather side of the spectrum, I will therefore list basically,
what we look for to offset the characteristics, of the yellow hot-weather
side of the spectrum:

1. Colour.
2. Largeness of brood pattern during main honeyflows.
3. Lack of disease.
4. Lack of/low number of parasites.
5. Body uniformity.
6. Lack of crossbrace.
7. Body size.
8. Honey and pollen gathering capabilities, both main and out-of-season.
9. Colony defense.
10. Hours of flight.
11. Manageability (aggressiveness).
12. Robbing capacity.
13. Conformity of brood pattern during out-of-season and pre-flow periods.
14. Cluster and fanning abilities.
15. Propolizing abilities.
16. Broodnest priming abilities during out-of-season and pre-flow periods.

Now with the above, there are various reasons for looking at these
characteristics both pro and con. We look for all within a colony, because
we have found that to put a colony aside for and/or select for only one or a
few attributes only can have detrimental consequences.

Dave also wrote about splits. He said, 'We do not 'split' colonies as we
would have no control over the genetic make up of the queens that would
result in the queen less have of the 'splits'.

Reply:
This chain of thought I do not follow! A colony that is divided is a 'split'
colony or a 'divided' colony, and if one is practicing outbreeding, to a
point, there would be no control over the drones, with which the queens
would be mating.

This can be rectified somewhat, with out-of-season breeding though, to
either the yellow and/or black side of the spectrum. Perhaps Dave could
explain a little more here on his way (s) of making increase in numbers for
understanding for me so I can follow his chain of thought better.

Dave wrote: I out cross regularly, but certainly not everytime. Inbreeding,
'ie backcrossing' is just as useful a breeding tool as 'outcrossing'.
Backcrossing helps stabilize lines and 'fix' characteristics that would
otherwise be variable.

Reply:
It is nice to see that Dave regularly out breeds his colonies, but I am a
little bit puzzled by what he means concerning inbreeding as pertains to
backcrossing.

To me inbreeding practices are basically the usage of the same drone mother,
back to back in the field. This could also be put, as the selection and
usage of the same queen mother, back to back, for production of queens to
take to the field, as the drones are a direct compliment of the queen in a
colony. I also would call the insemination of drones back to it's mother,
which would be mating back to itself, the queen again being a direct
compliment to the drone, and thus inbreeding.

I have never heard backcrossing in general context refered to as inbreeding,
especially when open field mating is used. Nor have I ever seen the half
moon patterns and buckshot patterning associated with inbreeding, during
usage of a field backcrossing situation. Perhaps this could be discussed a
lttle more here for reader understanding for the basics.

Dave wrote about saving fragements, so that genetic information is not lost,
and I wrote about not saving the weak, but either letting them die or
absorbing them into other colonies for strength. I can certainly see Dave's
point on destroying weak or sickly bees as being of no use, and we do not
aborbe sickly bees, but I most certainly do believe in combining weak
colonies or abosorbing into other stronger colonies.

Many times 2-3 weak colonies combined, going into the winter or early
spring, will come through strong. There is no need to find the queens or
make a selection, of which would be best to keep. The bees themselves will
do that. Question: Is this not a way thru absorbtion of keeping traits that
would have been lost, if the only thing not liked about the colony was the
size of it's force (weak) for going into off season conditions? What
survives in the absorbtion is what is best for survival then, Yes? Just
giving something a chance to go for it and seeing if it has the fortitude to
go for it!

Dave said, " No, I do not use an incubator, I prefer my virgins to emerge in
a small colony of about 1500 bees. They fly from these for mating and then
are allowed to lay up the small nuc so that their quality can be assessed.

Reply:

I myself like to use an incubator in conjunction with out-of-season breeding
cycles. By using late breeding or early breeding cycles, we can avoid many
yellower drones in our area. The virgins emerged within the incubator can
then save precious time on a breeding program and increase it's success
ten-fold, by allowing for sorting of queens for body conformity and colour.
The virgin queens, can then be taken immediately to the field and smoked
into marked colonies where yellower characteristics are, skipping the darker
caste colonies. This way several virgin queen lines can be smoked into a
single yard for outmating, to give a very wide genetic makeup and secure
large broodrearing patterns for honey production.

Dave wrote: "Indescriminate or repeated inbreeding will lead to disaster. I
believe the American practice of 'splitting'colonies increases the chance of
inbreeding and is a major reason why so many US outfits purchase
commercially produced queens".

Reply:

Again here, I myself do not know how splitting/dividing/making increase of
colonies increases the chance of inbreeding and could be a major reason why
so many US outfits purchase commercially produced queens.

As far as I know, over 2/3 of the colonies in the USA are not requeened by
use of commercially bought queens. This is statistical fact and has been for
a number of years. Splitting is not inbreeding.
I would have to see a chain of thought here to try to understand ehy this is
thought to be so.

Perhaps in UK there is a practice that is done, that is or leads to
inbreeding that I and others are not aware of. Perhaps Dave could enlighten
me so I can understand and we can all talk more then and relate back to our
own beekeeping operations.

Like I said earlier, I am enjoying these discussions and listed above what I
consider to be a whole bee concept for seletion of colonies to perpetuate.
Any comments on as to what we look at, in anyone particular heading would be
welcomed, for further discussion on understanding by all.

Sincerely,

Dee A. Lusby
Tucson, Arizona
USA